I'm new to this discussion. Didn't have time to read all 87 pages. Though I'm not against any tax that returns services, Ray's Modest Proposal seems to be a simple solution that misses the point. There are many simple solutions which will never work, because we are all too selfish. For instance, we could afix a permanent medalion to the outside of every new car and light truck that gets under 20 mpg that says, "Screw my grandchildren--I want my toy NOW!" Or we could make it mandatory for every oil change establishment to fix any oil leak they see, or report unfixable leaks to local authorities, who would require the owner of the leaky car to have it repaired or junked. No one seems to be talking about the huge volumes of oil that leak unnecessarily onto our roads and parking lots, and eventually end up in our rivers and oceans. These proposals would be much less expensive than Ray's tax, would greatly reduce our consumption significantly, and are still wacko enough to satisfy Tom and Ray's coff-the-wall proclivities!
Charber, the discussion thread is about slowing down the consumption of petroleum derived fuels such as gasoline and diesel, so as to benefit the environment, the US balance of payments, and slowing global warming, as well as leaving some for our grandchildren.
Agree that oil leaking from cars is an environmental problem; in Europe there are stiff fines for this kind of things, and cars are much better maintained. All acrs also have an annual inspection to catch such things.
The Market is a far better allocator of resources than is Government. The new auto market is by far loaded to more energy efficient vehicles. Customers want them now when they wanted bigger and less efficient a few years ago. Left over are the designs of 5 years ago now coming to market with declining buyers. Detroit mismanaged their products and the unions extracted far more than a competitive buisness can sustain. Clearly seen 20 years ago by Honda and Toyota.
A surcharge on gasoline has zero, repeat zero chance of Congressional approval.
Alternatives to increasing the gasoline tax:
Ration 18 gallons of gasoline per car per month. The WWII A sticker.
Impose the Double Nickel. Drag is proportional to speed squared. Force fuel efficient speeds on consumers.
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
Is my check in the mail?
As for Iraq:
USA is a guarantor of Israeli security since the late 40's. Several Presidents and many Congresses. Theoretically they represented the will of the People. The ME became our burden.
The People have abused cheap gasoline. Consumption with little constraint. It's our "right". We funded Al Qaeda at the pump.
Might help the world if Muslim nations made it to the 20th Century.
Ration 18 gallons of gasoline per car per month. The WWII A sticker.
This would get me to work 12 days a month with nothing left for personal errands. Don't suggest public transportation. The nearest bus stop is 3 miles from my home. At the other end, the nearest bus stop is half a mile from work. As near as I can tell from the confusing bus schedule, the first bus in the morning does not run early enough to get me to work on time. If rationing were to be imposed (which I do not expect), I would retire and, to use a 1960s expression, drop out of society.
Impose the Double Nickel. Drag is proportional to speed squared. Force fuel efficient speeds on consumers.
This scares me. Good luck and a state-of-the-art radar detector got me through the last national speed limit unscathed. However, I don't want to repeat the experience and, given current enforcement technology, I might not be able to. If idiot level speed limits are reimposed, I have already decided to dump the Infiniti I bought new a few months ago, retire and stay home.
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
Don't holding a job, living within your means and saving for retirement count?
Is my check in the mail?
The only checks I need are my pay check, income from my savings and the Social Security to which I have contributed all my working life.
USA is a guarantor of Israeli security since the late 40's. Several Presidents and many Congresses. Theoretically they represented the will of the People. The ME became our burden.
The modern Middle East mess dates back to the end of World War One when Britain and France redrew national borders with no consideration for the ethnic groups that were either pushed together or split apart.
The People have abused cheap gasoline. Consumption with little constraint. It's our "right". We funded Al Qaeda at the pump.
I get really tired of people who believe it's OK to earn money, but not to spend it for your own purposes. Al Qaeda is so cheap to run that they don't need oil revenues to survive.
Might help the world if Muslim nations made it to the 20th Century.
Several of them are making great progress. Ironically, Iran is the best example. The general population is progressive but are being held down by handful of aging religous fanatics.
Ray has been dipping into the Shameless Commerce till a lot, I guess.
It's tough at the bottom, Ray. We don't need another idea from the Al Gore-Antoinette School For Dealing With the Great Unwashed.
And the profits from this scheme go to the Government? To be repaid @ 33 cents on the dollar like Education & Welfare? Fooey!
Attack the abusers, not those of us who make an effort!
Such as...Try forcing auto manufacturers to put premium-fuel-only engines in low-efficiency vehicles (<20 mpg) and then charge $6 a gallon for THAT! Leave Regular alone.
and...require transponders on these maniaical trucks that barrel down the road @ 80+ mph. Talk about fuel waste! And fine the daylights out of these jerks if they cover the distance between weigh stations @ high speeds.
It would be a start.
I don't know how to break this to you knuckleheads, but Europe has had confiscatory gasoline taxes for decades. None of the things you predict for this tax have come true in Europe. In spite of the fact that they pay the equivalent of $8 to $10 per US gallon, the freeways are jammed and there are plenty of SUVs there. What is guaranteed to happen is that the slackers that populate our government will have more of our hard-earned money to squander, just like they do in Europe. So, if that's your objective, great idea!
Ray, you might be on to something. I would change your proposal a little though. Let's just say that gas is selling for $2.899. Reduce the price to $2.399 and then add $.50. Then you have your $.50 per gallon tax and us little people don't get soaked for any additional cost for getting around in our flivers. Whadaya think?
And just what fairy supplies the money to reduce the price?
We are surrounded by econcompoops! These are people who believe that government has the power to do anything it wants and have the result come out the way government wants it. Unfortunately, the rules of real life experience show that:
- Government can't control the economy without making a big mess of it.
- Markets always try to balance, whether or not government wants them to.
- Usually, when a market is unbalanced by government action, it rebalances itself in such a way as to either undo the government action or make a worse mess than the original problem.
- When government tries to control the price of a product to be lower than what it costs to make it, nobody makes the product.
- When government tries to raise the wages of workers higher than what employers can afford to pay, nobody is hired, and the employers go out of business or move to foreign countries.
- When government raises taxes, businesses move out of the country or go bankrupt. People can't afford to live on their incomes, jobs disappear, and mortgages are foreclosed.
- When government tries to make the price of a product higher, too much of the product is made.
- When government subsidizes health care for the poor, it raises the price of health care for the rest of the people.
- The stimulus package will not cause people to spend more money. It will instead let them pay down their debts.
In short, when government does ANYTHING to the economy, the effect will not be the effect government wanted to occur.
Dear Ray,
I think the lubricants you've been around all your life have soaked into your brain and let it slide out without you realizing it!!! A $3.00 a gallon gas tax in six years? Are you crazy?
Your "modest" proposal is anything but. It hurts those who can afford such a tax the most. Let me give you an example why; let's say I'm the knucklehead that buys that shiny new Chevroford Subnavahummer that gets 8 miles to a gallon. 3 years later, I decide to dump it because of your tax. Mrs Anita Carr comes along looking for wheels to match her less than modest income. The gleaming guzzler is a fraction of the cost of the now inflated prices of even a used Toyhondai Sipper. She can't afford the payments on the Sipper, and buys the Subnavahummer. The guzzle bucket stays on the road, and Anita stays broke either way.
Why penalize consumers rather than incentivize them? Why not continue, in fact increase subsidies to purchase more fuel effecient cars? We give incentives to not pollute, and not grow certain crops, why should we allow the Government to take from all of us what they gladly give to a select few special interests?
Besides; that $3.00 a gallon tax you propose would raise billions that would be more likely diverted to buy bombs than to develop biofuel. The Government is NOT a good steward of our money...why give them more of it than we have to?
As much as it is painful for me to agree on this, this is a great idea. Its not a new idea, a famous contributing NYT economists has been a champion for it for a while. Our consumption of oil is way too high, all of our oil money flows to enrich and empower our enemies. Also, the price of gas increases every year as well and according to most recent publicly available estimates will double, especially as demand from India, China and other developing countries increases. We, as americans, don't seem to get the message and keep on buying the largest and most inefficient cars and trucks. We pay to Saudi, Iran, Venezuela, Russia and other states that want to destroy us. We keep on paying them more and more, so why not pay ourselves and make ourselves stronger and diminish our reliance on our enemies. If we do nothing, we will still end up paying amounts that are probably even greater than anything with the proposed gas tax. We all are paying for it already, might as well pay it to ourselves and invest in alternative fuel research, improve our infrastructure and strenghten the economy.
Bottom line, you cannot escape it, it will be $6 per gallon, either wiht the markup going to saudi or another OPEC friend or to fix our country
Agree! At some stage the free market does not deliver the right results. At such a time government intervention is needed to shift the direction and set new rules. After those new rules are implemented, private enterprise can do its best to produce goods and services at the best prices and quality.
The Japanes government did this in the fifties, identifying cameras, radios, and other high value added goods as export items. The set the inspection level for cameras to ensure they could compete with German goos. Then followed TVs, and later cars. The rest is history.
But who are YOU to say what the "right" result is.
The free market always delivers the final result, no matter what government does. When government tries to do something about it, it causes the wrong intermediate result. This is because the economy is much bigger than any government's power. Individuals making buying and hiring choices, when taken collectively, undo any attempt of government to control such choices.
We will get more fuel efficiency when the market demands it, and not before. But I see the market already demanding it without government meddling.
Trying to control the economy through government regulation is like trying to scotch-tape shaving cream to a cloudburst.
And an elected government can't be any smarter than the least intelligent voter.
Stop worshiping government, and you will be better off.
The right result here is the desired result; lower consumption of petroleum fuels. The reasons cited by various posters are: 1. Improve the balance of payments and strengthen the dollar, 2. Reduce CO2 emissions, 3. Improve energy security, 4. Leave some petroleum for our grandchilderen.
A useful byproduct will be smaller vehicles, reducing the need for large parking spaces, and other benefits.
Actually an oil man, I forget his name, also believes in a tax increase. He believes in killing the demand because production is not sustainable. He talks about it in a Playboy interview. I forget which month.
Don't like the idea. My wife drives a Chevy Suburban, smallest engine available. According to TerraPass it generates 17,000 lbs of CO2 annually. A Toyota Preius generates 5,0000. But when you figure our 3 kids, my wife, the large dog and occasionally me, that is at least 17,000 divided by 4 or less than any latte liberal driving a Prius all by themselves, which is what you normally see.
A suburban is not a very space-efficient vehicle, compared to a 4 cyl long wheelbase US minivan, and most vans built overseas by Toyota (HiAce), Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc, which hold 8 passengers and are shorter than your Suburban.
These vehicles have 4 cyinder diesel engines and 5 speed manual transmissions and get twice the mileage of a Suburban even while loaded.
We had such a vehicle in Bankok as a tour car and it would have held several dogs, luggage and 6 passengers easily.
I would agree if you need to pull a heavy trailer that a suburban or pickup is the way to go.
I was in your court until my wife until children were returning from a Montana trip this past summer. I was here in Michigan finishing a college class and got the phone call. They had been in an accident. Rearended by a Dodge Dakota. That is a small truck but it totaled the 03 Chevy Venture. I spend 20 years in the Army and know there isn't alot that can hurt a tank so I bought one. 05 Dodge Durango, 4 X 4.
I remember buying a Chevy Sprint back in 88 and getting 50+ miles to the gallon, now I get 17.2 consistently. My families safety is worth it.
I agree we should do more to reduce the gasoline consumption but don't you think a change in CAFE standards would have the same effect without killing the average consumer?
Thanks for your time,
Love your show,
When my wife lets me listen (she just rolls her eyes when I tune in Saturday mornings) I actually use portions of it in my automotive class.
Tom Lowe
U.S. Army Retired
Automotive Instructor
Calhoun Area Career Center
Battle Creek Michigan
Ray,
This is exactly the kind of problem that the government is good at solving and it's a good idea that should have been implemented decades ago - Dick Cheney even proposed the same idea at one time. You have probably discovered by now, as Cheney did, that this idea will never fly in the good ole USA.
The reality is that if this idea had been implemented in the 1970s or 1980s, gas would be substantially cheaper now, there would be less pollution, other taxes would be lower, and our infrastructure would be in better condition. We would basically have diverted part of the income stream that has gone straight to middle eastern countries back to our own use.
I would also suggest that we start to segregate freeway lanes by weight and speed. Reserve half of the lanes for vehicles that weigh over 2500 lbs or that want to go over 50 mph. Reserve the other half for vehicles that weigh less than 2500 lbs and that are willing to limit their speed to 50 mph. This is another good idea that will never happen because the majority of Americans seem to have become incapable of making decisions that are in their long-term interest.
One more thing - do a web search for the 'Dust to Dust' report. After reading it, I concluded that the old Volkswagen beetle was the most energy efficient car made in my lifetime.
I think a graduated gasoline tax is absolutely the way to go. Ray: your tax starts quick and is steep. But it would spur fast change. This idea needs to be discussed!
