Detroit does it again: Lots of SUVs, few high MPG compacts

Rubbish. Look up Euro Ford Focus, Mondeo - both excellent cars and very different to the US versions, or Renault, Peugeot, Fiat and best of all Seat. These are all good small, economical cars sold in very demanding and competitive markets. You need to do a little research before making such sweeping and uninformed statements. I for one would love to get my hands on a Seat Leon.

still JUNK,same BUILD QUALITY, don't get me started on renault. (another piece of crap,I do not care where you BUY the car(JUNK) M/O!
Rubbish. you said it I didn't lmao

maico.

my nephew drives a 2007 seat leon fr tdi,here in england,it has a vw 2.0 tdi engine with 170 bhp!it does 130mph,and up to 50mpg when cruising!build quality is excellent also.vw needs to export seats to the usa,you guys would love them!

They dont make a good fuel efficient car. However they are very good at making big things. Dont say that they have missed the boat completely, they make more efficient large engines than they used to. The gas mileage on a V8 is now in the 20s, it used to be in the single digits.

I didn't see a post from you last year warning that domestic manufacturers should be making more compact cars, hindsight is the most facile of skills to attain. US Manufacturers were responding to market demands - large powerful and gas hungry SUV's. Those manufacturers that did produce fuel efficient compacts didn't see any record sales figures, Honda et al have that market sewn up and a good competitive car isn't going to be developed in a couple of years. High gas prices are a significant result of the sub prime crunch along with other production and market factors, seems no-one foresaw sub prime either. Speculators have now re-directed their cash into energy commodities instead of the burn't out Mortgage Backed Securities market, hence driving prices up.

"I didn't see a post from you last year warning that domestic manufacturers should be making more compact cars"

If you read back through all my messages, you will find comments to that end a number of times.

U.S. manufacturers not only miss the boat, they don't even seem to know that the boat exists. I remember when the VW Beetle became popular in the late 1950's. A person had to wait 3 to 6 months for delivery. The design of the VW went back to 1939. The cars came in when the U.S. manufacturers were building bigger and more gas thirsty cars and loading them with accessories. The VW Beetle didn't offer an automatic transmission, didn't offer or need power steering, didn't offer air conditioning and had a lousy heater. What the VW did offer was low maintenance, good gasoline mileage for the time, and a perception that the vehicle was a quality automobile. The price of the VW Beetle was not much less than the bottom of the line Chevrolet 150, the Plymouth Plaza, or the Ford Mainline, all strippo models. I can remember in the early 1960's that a 4 year old VW Beetle and a 4 year old Cadillac would fetch about the same price.

IMHO, Chrysler corporation had a great opportunity to get on the boat with its Neon. Had the car given the impression that it was a quality car and established a record for reliability, it could have been the next VW Beetle. When George Mason was president of Nash, he brought a a small car that was easy on gasoline called the Rambler. The car was well made and it did sell. I don't think that our manufacturers learn much from history.

Agree....good seats and reliability and you're 90% on your way to an automotive success. DAH....That's why the Ford Ranger keeps plugging along W/O change. It's reliability, is the only thing going for it, and they still keep selling the little buggers. IMHO, one of the few unrecognized long term Ford success stories. The MODEL A of compact trucks. It used the revamped Pinto 4 cyl. for years; that's how old it is.

Quoting Triedaq: "When George Mason was president of Nash, he brought a a small car that was easy on gasoline called the Rambler. The car was well made and it did sell. I don't think that our manufacturers learn much from history."

Unfortunately the American car buying public didn't seem to care about the Rambler. Gas was still under 25¢ a gallon. In their FIRST YEAR'S PRODUCTION Chevy's Corvair and Ford's Falcon, which were their first foray into small car production, combined to sell more than Nash/AMC's Rambler's did during the previous ten year run.

For the most part, no one seemed to care that the Rambler existed. Don't get me wrong, I still have my two bigger 1950 Nashes, and had a '54 Rambler Country Club hardtop a few years ago. Sloppy handling, weak front suspension systems, enclosed drive shafts and all. Were they well made? I really don't think so. I wonder what percentage of '50 to '60 Nashes compared to '50 to '60 Fords still exist.


1960 First year Corvair 187696
1960 First year Ford Falcon 435676
Totals for that 1st year, 623372

1950 Nash Rambler 11428
1951 Nash Rambler 69953
1952 Nash Rambler 53000
1952 Nash Rambler 30260
1954 Nash Rambler 36230
1955 Nash Rambler 56023
1956 Nash Rambler 46107
1957 Rambler American 68757
1958 Rambler American 30640
1959 Rambler American 91494
1960 Rambler American 120983
Ten year total 614795

When they quit making the Corvair and Falcon, AMC was still pumping out small cars. They were not big sellers either. It seems to me to be rather like they wanted to be the only car company out there, and wanted the public to love their outdated cars, no matter what. And THEN came the Renault Alliance. The worst of two worlds. And now the US Air Farce wants the French to help build the new tanker, but I digress.

I envy you owning 2 1950 Nash automobiles. I was in elementary school when the Airflyte design came out and I was fascinated by these cars and I still am. When George Mason introduced the Nash Rambler for the 1950 model year (I think it was in late April or May), he introduced cars that were more expensive than the standard Fords, Chevrolets or Plymouths and the first models were only convertibles and station wagons. They came well equipped for the times--included a radio and the Nash "Weather Eye" heating system. Many cars at this time didn't have fresh air heaters--the heater was a recirculating box under the dashboard. The stripped down Fords and Chevrolets didn't even have a passenger side sunvisor. The "Country Club" Rambler hardtop wasn't introduced until 1952. At any rate, the Rambler did survive until 1969. The Henry J and the Willys were gone by the middle of the 1950's. The Ramblers that I remember gave the perception of being well-assembled--they didn't have the squeaks and rattles that the other cars had. Rambler wasn't the only car using the closed drivshaft--Chevrolet used this torque tube drive through the 1954 models and Buick used it through the 1960 model year. I know that my 1965 Rambler Classic had the enclosed driveshaft, but I think that the Rambler American had gone to an open propeller shaft--I don't remember when. At the beginning of the 1960's, the Rambler was the 4th best selling car in the nation and had one of the highest resale values. When American Motors tried to imitate the "Big 3" after George Romney left to become governor of Michican, the quality slipped and the company forgot about its niche in the marketplace. Remember that VW sales were very small compared to the sales of Fords and Chevrolets.

I do remember when I was in college that my dad was shopping for a replacement for his 1954 Buick. After driving the 1960 Buick, he said that he wasn't going to pay $3200 for a four passenger car and went down the street and bought a Rambler Classic. The fit and finish of the Rambler seemed better than that of the Buick at that time. I purchased a 1965 Rambler Classic in 1965 and I thought the car seemed to be of higher quality than the Dodge Dart or the Ford Fairlane or Falcon. I did have to have the transmisison (manual) repaired and it was a pain to drop the rear axle with the closed driveshaft. When I was ready to replace the Rambler, AMC no longer built what I thought was a quality car.

IMHO, it is the perceived quality that sells a car. The Rambler lost this after the mid-1960's, and, as a result, lost its niche that George Mason and George Romney had established in the marketplace.

"Look up Euro Ford Focus, Mondeo - both excellent cars and very different to the US versions, or Renault, Peugeot, Fiat and best of all Seat. "

Really tough for me to accept European versions being touted as reliable. The milage requirements is so much less than that of US, only Fiat, Renault etc. could survive there. Please tell me a compact car made in Europe that is as reliable as even an American Ford Focus let alone a Toy/Honda/Sub etc.

the european ford focus was voted most reliable car in 2003!i drive a 2002 ford puma in england and its been totally reliable in the last 6 years.most european fords are very reliable also.

Reliability in Europe is a relative thing; cars that were exported as being reliable (Ford Cortina, GM Vauxhall, French Simcas, Relaults, Citroens, Fiats, etc) in Europe performed rather dismally in North America. Some reasons:

1. Americans drive a lot more

2. Europe has ridgid ammual inspections

3. Americans are less punctual about checking things and maintenance

4. Climate variations in the US are extreme compared to Europe

Americans virtually live in cars; and a good number of them were conceived in cars!

The Japanese leanred the hard way, and withdrew their initial offerings until the bugs had been worked out. Nissan even had one of their engineers live with a US familiy for a full year to learn about the abuse US cars get.

A pair of serious questions.
If one is offended by heavyweight Detroit made pickups and SUVs then are you equally offended by Toyota 4Runners and Tacomas, Nissan Titans and Armadas, etc.?


A number of my neighbors own late model Chevrolet Impalas and every single one of these people are happy with their vehicles. They state the fuel mileage they get is in the 29-32 MPG range on the highway. (And before it's brought up, I know these people very well and they are not liars.)
If one is offended by the mileage these cars get then are you equally offended by the mileage a new Camry gets or especially a new Subaru; none of which get near what the Impala does? (This in spite of Subaru proclaiming themselves the greenest car company).

I agree. I don't see that the line ups are all that different.

Chevy: http://www.chevrolet.com/lineup/
Toyota: http://www.toyota.com/

I'm not offended by the import mileage because after 5 years when I get my next car people will actually want my import and pay me a lot for it unlike the Impala which no one really wants. Take a look on Craigslist-I see 10-12 year old Hondas going for 1/3 of what they cost new. If you find a 12 year old American car it's worth about 15% of what you paid. Specialty models exempt of course.

Well, I am on the other end of the spectrum. I would be the one looking for the used car. I usually go by what was well maintained rather than if it was a domestic or import car.

I'm definitely not one of those people who will pay a lot for your used import, because I think it's ridiculous that people list and buy used import cars for that much. I can always find a domestic that's been taken better care of (because you don't just "put gas in and drive" a domestic), much cheaper to buy, and cheaper to fix if I do have problems (and they all do, it's a crapshoot with used cars, of any make, in my experience).

I don't buy new, so resale value is rarely an issue for me, either.

I always laugh when I think of friends/family who've paid more for their one used import vehicle, than I've paid for 2 domestic vehicles that are much more interesting to drive and look at. And their ownership costs are always higher than mine. I really don't see the attraction.

My opinion of course, to each their own.

i also buy used cars only - i prefer bmw, mercedes, toyo and nissan. the last car i purchased i broke one of my cardinal rules - i purchased american a 95 buick park ave w/ 80,000 miles. i got what i considered to be a great deal 50% of the private seller blue book. and since i only drive 6 or 7 k per year what could go wrong, especially since this 1 owner car was maintained at the local buick dealer. (yes i had a mechanic check it out prior to purchase) omg in 6K miles i have spent 140% of what i paid for it. and the mechanics all tell me the same thing. "yes that's normal, that part was a bad design and always breaks" the last american car i purchased (also the last new car i purchased) a 1990 jeep cherokee. what a piece of crap that was. between the thing breaking down all the time and the dealer blaming me cause he didn't want to honor the warranty. since i got rid of the jeep in 92, i've had 6 mercedes sedans, a bmw 3 series conv, 2 toyo land cruisers and my current pos buick. all of the imports were purchased with miles over 100k and ran great. most of the imports i sold after driving for a year or so for more than i paid for them, with very little maint. except of course the buick w/ half the miles. i would love to see the big 3 get back to profitability, but it probably won't happen until they improve the reliability of the vehicles, and the perception of reliability. also when you pay people $30 something per hour and they still can't take pride in their work, your not going to produce a quality product. now don't get all pissey about what i just said, not everyone is like that, but if the majority of your crew doesn't put forth the effort the minority won't be able to cover it. i lived in detroit until the bottom of the economy fell out, and while there i got to know a lot of people in the industry including the german design team that developed the ford 500. quite a few of the 3rd shift that produced the 500 (after drinking 5 or 6 hours) managers who looked for ways to stick it to the rank and file. line employees that used to laugh about putting scrap metal inside door panels so the cars would rattle, and urinating on the carpets so when summer came along - pew. i could go on and on but i'm done. thanks i'll keep my used imports.

It takes time to change production to smaller cars. First they have to recognize tht sales are down on the SUVs (they have). They they have to see increased demand for smaller cars in their product line. Once they max out production at a particular factory, they have to bring on additional capacity at other factories. It takes a while, and it depends on whether anyone likes their small cars. The new Malibu seems to be well appreciated by the car reviewers. Maybe that can translate into acceptance by the public.