Some interesting facts regarding gasoline expansion with temperature:
25 gal of gasoline at 30ºF expands to 26 gal at 90ºF. (It expands 1% for every 15ºF rise in temperature.
In the U.S. gas is sold by oil companies to wholesalers in units called "US Petroleum Gallons," which is defined as 231 cu. in. of volume at 60ºF.(Meters on fuel tanker pumps are temperature compensated.)
In the U.S. gas is sold retail at gas stations in units called "US Standard Gallons," which is defined as 231 cu. in. of volume regardless of temperature.
In Canada meters at gas stations are temperature compensated, so that a liter of Canadian gas is only a true liter (1000 cu. cm.) at about 15ºC. If one buys gas in Canada on a day when the temperature falls below 15ºC, the actual gas volume delivered by the pump is reduced.
I said "average". In January, the station owner, if different from the company who refined the fuel, will be "short" those same gallons as the liquid temperature slips below 60 degrees. Over say a two year period, the volume measurement equals out and 60 degrees will be very close to the actual average temperature.
Drivers and truckers in the warmer states (California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma ... and all the states east to Virginia) NEVER recover in winter their heat-related costs from summer driving. On the other hand, drivers in states like Minnesota and Maine come out ahead in the game.
Taking yearly averages for the entire United States as a whole, there are far more "loser" drivers in the southern states than there are "winner" drivers in the more sparsely populated northern states. Consumer losses in warm states are ten times larger than consumer gains in cool states.. Reference:
I suspect fuel dispensers in the near future will automatically compensate volume for temperature and tankwagon loads will be temperature corrected too..
Tank wagon loads are already temperature corrected. Gas station operators won't follow suit as long as there is a net gain for them in the US. That is what the legislation in Congress and the impending state lawsuits in the southern states is all about.
I've read about this legislation. Should it pass, stations would be required to incorporate into their pumps temperature compensation. Ad the price of gas will go up both to cover the cost of the systems and to compensate for the impact to the stations' profits.
Personally I think the legislation is overkill and would cost us at the pumps.
I've read about this legislation. Should it pass, stations would be required to incorporate into their pumps temperature compensation. Ad the price of gas will go up both to cover the cost of the systems and to compensate for the impact to the stations' profits.
Personally I think the legislation is overkill and would cost us at the pumps.
A station with a 30,000 gal tank that buys "60ºF gasoline" that happens to be at 85ºF the day it is delivered (remember the tanker trucks have temp-compensated meters), actually receives 30,500 gal from the tanker truck (remember that gasoline expands at 1% per 15ºF). So immediately the station owner has 500 gallons he has not paid for, but which he can sell to drivers at about $1,500 profit. $1500 is roughly the cost to retrofit one fuel pump to temperature compensation. It is done now throughout Canada and Hawaii. The cost of a temp-compensated pump is about a weekend's profit from selling heat-expanded gasoline.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. At least you now seem to admit to what is happening, and that drivers in the southern tier of the US are getting (you know what). Some of them are getting mad.
I think
the 'average Joe' should be aware of the games being played, and
everyone should get what they pay for, and not heat-expanded gasoline in the summer.
Heck, I live in Chicago where snow stays on the ground from 12/15 to 3/1, and the temps rarely rise above 35ºF during that period (it's called a 'mid-continent' winter). Gas-wise, I'm doing pretty good, but I still think gasoline should be sold by the "lb" (that is, by the BTU), and not by the gallon. It's only fair.
Um...this was my first post to this question. When you see "Anonomous" as a poster it may or may not be the same "Anonomous" as the last posts. Mine come up that way now because I had a problem signing back on under the new format, the system kept telling me that my label "mountainbike" was taken, and I gave up. I went 'round and 'round under the new system trying to attach a new password. So now, since it doesn't have me registered, it posts me as "Anonomous".
Yup, I understand what's happening and understand the physics. Unfortunately, I also understand the "net result" economics. We'll pay. And it will accomplish exactly zero.
Um...this was my first post to this question. When you see "Anonomous" as a poster it may or may not be the same "Anonomous" as the last posts. ...
Yeah, you may be either "Anonymous" or "Anonomus", or someone in between. I may be either "Raymond," or Rae from 26th and Homan, or "Ray the Pole from Cicero" or someone else. This is beginning to sound liked a ChiTown mafioso trial.
Yup, I understand what's happening and understand the physics. Unfortunately, I also understand the "net result" economics. We'll pay. And it will accomplish exactly zero.
Who will pay? Nobody said nothing about paying. We're not going to pay. If you want to pay, we don't have a problm.
We buy gas at 60ºF per gallon, whether it's December or July. We're selling more fumes than gas now at 95th and I-55. There is room for everybody. Let's not rock the boat.
If the legislation passes there will be hardware costs, installation costs, and regulatory compliance costs. And those will be added to the cost of our gas. If the costs to operate the station go up, the cost of the gas has to go up accordingly in order for the station to stay in business. It's that simple.
Playing with math to make it appear that we're being ripped off and that one has introduced legislation to stop the injustice is great politics, but in reality the price to fill our tanks is going to be determined by station operating costs and market conditions. Volumetric fluctuations due to to coefficients of expansion simply get compensated for in those figures.
"A station with a 30,000 gal tank that buys "60ºF gasoline" that happens to be at 85ºF the day it is delivered (remember the tanker trucks have temp-compensated meters), actually receives 30,500 gal from the tanker truck (remember that gasoline expands at 1% per 15ºF). So immediately the station owner has 500 gallons he has not paid for, but which he can sell to drivers at about $1,500 profit. $1500 is roughly the cost to retrofit one fuel pump to temperature compensation. It is done now throughout Canada and Hawaii. The cost of a temp-compensated pump is about a weekend's profit from selling heat-expanded gasoline."
Raymond, are you nuts?
Tankwagons are limited to 9000 gallons and they have no meters. They have a little disc inside each compartment that's on a threaded rod and the compartment is filled until it just touches the disc. The location of the disc is calibrated and sealed.
If the load is temperature compensated, then the station owner gets nothing extra to sell, the extra "expanded gallons" are not delivered to him.
Anytime a station owner feels he needs a little extra profit, he is free to raise his price. He doesn't need to play games with gasoline temperature..
Raymond is operating off of information he has garnered from the internet and not real life experience. Factor that in.
And you, Anonymous, speaker of wisdom and knowledge, are "operating off of information you have garnered from real life experience." Give me a break! You have no idea what my background is — not the foggiest. And you could be some 16 year-old kid tooling around in the first car daddy bought for him.
The problem as stated, seems to be causing most complaining from warmer weather locations. A simple solution, not perfect but adequate, to gasoline volume temperature compensation is as follows:
Calibrate each pump to reflect the average annual temperature for that particular location.
Some other comments and observations:
1. The consumer will be paying for new or revised pumps so be careful what you are asking for.
2. Southern, warmer weather residents' engines come off a rich mixture sooner after starting from cold and save fuel accordingly which provides some unintended compensation for less dense fuel.
3. Southern US drivers also have the advantage of not needing winter gasoline which has less energy content per gallon.
4. Southern drivers do not have to drive in snow/slush which is detrimental to fuel mileage, also providing them with some unintended adjustment for less dense fuel.
If fuel delivery adjustment is done with each location's average annual temperature in mind, additional motorists' savings from perfect gasoline volume delivery will not justify spending money to refit/replace pumps for many years, in my opinion.
State weights and measures people check, set and adjust gasoline dispencers. They DO have a little +/- tolerance. They usually check the pumps in the summer time...They use a carefully calibrated 5 gallon can.
You are missing the entire point. That calibrated 5-gal can the state inspectors use contains LESS energy in the summer than it does in the winter. Up to 5% less. The inspectors could come every day of the year and fill their 5-gal can with $5 on the fuel pump, and stations would still be selling less gasoline in summer than in winter for the same price.
Yeah, I get a lot of info off the internet and I usually document the source. It's more accurate than anecdotal stories of how "hot" the gasoline feels to your hand when it's poured into your lawn mower. I posted a photo of a "receipt" from a gas-station in Kansas City showing gasoline in their tanks at almost 85ºF in September. If you don't believe the photo, you won't believe anything.
The cost of retro-fitting the gas-pump meters, about $1500 per pump, is not a big item in the scheme of things of running a gas station. And the money transferred from the pockets of stations in the south will go into the pockets of truckers and individuals. Economically, it's a zero sum game. Gasoline is not being destroyed, it's just being sold more equitably. Works in Canada and Hawaii.
Look, this is not just my idea. Legislation is being considered in about 20 southern states and in Congress to do just this. Do you really think everyone is barking up the wrong tree? You will be hearing more about this topic in the future. And if California passes legislation requiring temp-corrected gasoline sales, you will see momentum really pick up.
By the way, here is PHOTO of a truck driver at a truck stop in Virginia, July 2006, using a meat locker thermometer to measure the temperature of his delivered fuel. He is using an over-sized thermometer and pointing the face at the camera so the viewer can read the temperature on the dial. That is 34º C, folks, or 93º F.
"and stations would still be selling less gasoline in summer than in winter for the same price."
Same price??? It is a rare 4 day period when my local station does not change his price. Gasoline prices are in CONSTANT motion. This motion completely obscures any temperature factors.
Same price??? It is a rare 4 day period when my local station does not change his price. Gasoline prices are in CONSTANT motion. This motion completely obscures any temperature factors.
You either understood what I was implying or you did not. I would hope the majority of the readers of this forum understood.
A number of state legislatures are preparing legislation to mandate temp-corrected gas pump meters. All laws are, in the end, politically driven, but I think the truckers' lobby in this case may be strong enough to win.
I hope Con Dennis Kucinich makes the Big Oil companies and gov spend BILLIONS adding and monitoring the meters needed to adjust for Temp vs Volume of gas.CAUSE you know who's gonna PAY for it.THE GAS CUSTOMER!!! US!!! It won't effect the LOONIE paid agitators supposedly looking out for the little guy!!Because they make to much money from saving us poor little people.See how much I've done for you.Your getting your full gallon of gas in all temps.Sorry about the extra $1.00 you have to pay per gallon to cover the cost of all the equipment now mandated by gov for protecting the consumer!!
I hope Con Dennis Kucinich makes the Big Oil companies and gov spend BILLIONS adding and monitoring the meters needed to adjust for Temp vs Volume of gas.CAUSE you know who's gonna PAY for it.THE GAS CUSTOMER!!! US!!! It won't effect the LOONIE paid agitators supposedly looking out for the little guy!!Because they make to much money from saving us poor little people.See how much I've done for you.Your getting your full gallon of gas in all temps.Sorry about the extra $1.00 you have to pay per gallon to cover the cost of all the equipment now mandated by gov for protecting the consumer!!
Let's change your above statement to (circa 1965):
I hope the government makes the American automobile companies spend BILLIONS adding seat belts to cars. CAUSE you know who's gonna PAY for it. THE AUTO CUSTOMER!!! US!!! It won't effect the LOONIE paid agitators supposedly looking out for the little guy!! Because they make too much money from saving us poor little people. See how much I've done for you. You're now getting full crash protection. Sorry about the extra $100 you have to pay per car to cover the cost of all the equipment now mandated by gov for protecting the consumer!!
You must have loved the 1950s. Were you crushed when US car makers switched to metric and all the costs involved in buying new Snap-On wrenches? Bet you were. You're that kind of guy.
06/28/2007 5:11:46 AM
