<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Old Fuel Tax Suggestion"]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/12202.page Public Action Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
As Craig pointed out, only the price mechanism, a tax on both thirsty vehicles and gasoline, will make the public come around. This is much more preferable than shortages and rationing.

Since cars last 20 years or so, the place to start is to tax thirsty cars heavily, as well as hold the manufacturers' feet to the fire by jacking up the CAFE standards.

The $6/gallon gas scenario will come even if we do nothing, but it will hit us like a brick wall if we do not make an orderly transition.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991637 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991637 GMT Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#990428 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#990428 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Refineries also need to set aside 2-2.5% of their replacement value for maintenance and repair, as well as 2-5% for technological upgrading, such as lowering the sulfur content, better quality, etc.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991697 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991697 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion For what it's worth, refining margins, the profit refiners make after paying for the crude oil, have been very slim until recently. 

I don't consider $1 million/day PER REFINERY to be SMALL PROFIT MARGINS. Those were the figures 3 years ago BEFORE they REALLY STARTED TO MAKE A LOT OF PROFIT. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991611 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#991611 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Oil producers need margins to explore and develop new reserves, lest they go out of business eventually. This has been a major problem, since there are not enough places left to explore; 75% of all oil bearing areas are in the hands of state oil companies. and independent oil companies often have no acess to these lands; Mexico, Venzuela, Saudi Arabia, to mention a few. As a result, oil companies have now a lot of cash on hand, and are starting to invest in alternate sources such as oilsands in Canada, green energy, etc., or buying back their own shares.

They are also now making major investments in new refineries to handle heavy crude oil and oilsands products. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#986211 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#986211 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
The oil companies have us over a barrel (pun intended). We cannot stop using their product - we are too dependent. So when the cost of fuel rises rapidly - I don't believe their dollar per unit profit should rise equally rapidly.

But hey - this is the great market capitalism that America is so proud of so we should be proud of our oil industry....right???
]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#984434 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#984434 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
So, oil companies need to make a profit, just as Microsoft, Walmart and other "sinfully profitable" companies need to make profits to reinvest and provide a sustainable, growing business. The only issue I have at present is that oil companies do not have enough areas to explore and develop new resources. But many are now sinking billions of those "sinful Profits" into heavy oil, oilsands and other unconventional areas.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983221 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983221 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
In case you missed it, Toyota is by far the most profitable car company, and also produces the best cars. They have enough cash to buy both Ford and GM, if they wanted to. I'm sure you are buying from the least profitable company, such as Chrysler Ford or GM.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983272 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983272 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
How do you know that they are irrationally high? No question, it is a lot of money. It seems to me that when profits are high, that is the time to build the business. Before you tell me that the oil business is just giving money to executives, consider that the managers are just a part of one constituency - there are three: owners, employees (including managers) and customers. If you don't like how much Exxon-Mobil makes, buy from another gas station. Maybe you do already.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983219 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983219 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
I'm not upset about that - I'm upset about the irrationally high PROFITS that the Oil companies are taking. I think fuel SHOULD cost $4 or $5 a gallon - but the "profit" part of that should go directly into public costs that are a direct result of the fuel use (bridge and road maintenance, pollution, etc). Put the money where we need it and not in the coffers of the Oil companies.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#982419 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#982419 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#982416 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#982416 GMT Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#981625 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#981625 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
The 2008 consumption came to 9.3 mllion barrels/day. However, gasoline production probably dropped somewhat because the US imports 13% of its gasoline now. The reasons are refining capacity bottlenecks and overseas producers getting into the gasoline export business. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979265 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979265 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
The government in this case is all of us. Our representatives in DC enact laws that we either advocate or do not oppose too strenuously. In any case, I am not advocating new spending, just using an expanded tax (gas guzzler for trucks) to reduce the gap between current spending and income. The tax is also meant to make large new trucks less attractive by increasing their purchase price by about 10%. Our Senators and Congressmen want to do a good job. If you don't think that they are representing you well, drop them a line and provide a little coaching. They will respond to a plea for action if enough people tell them about it.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979235 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979235 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Where did you find that reference? Everything I've seen indicates an increase in consumption over the time period.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979222 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#979222 GMT Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#978215 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#978215 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Not to mention the cost increase in everything else like groceries....Grocery stores aren't going to absorb that cost...they're going to pass it on to the consumer."

That supposes a gasoline tax, not a gas guzzler tax expansion to include new trucks (only), which were not covered by the original gas guzzler tax. How does a gas guzzler tax of up to $7700 for any new vehicle have a substantial effect on how much someone drives or the price of groceries?]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983217 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983217 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Any time a tax is increased, someone gets hosed. The guzzler tax would likely not affect retirees much. They don't have a long commute, or any commute at all if they are truly retired. 

Depends on where you live. In the suburbs where you have to drive 5-10 miles to the store, or to church or to see the grand kids....

Not to mention the cost increase in everything else like groceries....Grocery stores aren't going to absorb that cost...they're going to pass it on to the consumer.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983069 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#983069 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Any time a tax is increased, someone gets hosed. The guzzler tax would likely not affect retirees much. They don't have a long commute, or any commute at all if they are truly retired.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#977841 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#977841 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Now you're starting to sound like my wife. (-;

I really should do something with that, it's wouldn't take very much to get it on the road but it will take a ton of work to really make it presentable. I'm almost afraid to start because I know it will turn into a giant project. I'm also a little concerned that I won't be able to keep my 17 year-old's hands off it.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975629 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975629 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
What about that 914 cluttering your garage?]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975618 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975618 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975023 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975023 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Personally, I just hope I never have to retire. 


20 years ago people use to look forward to retirement...Now it's a burden.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975011 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975011 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
They're retired, where do they have to go? .... Just kidding.

I'm not saying the increase in energy cost is a good thing, just an inevitability. As always, the people with fixed incomes are going to get hosed, that will happen whether the cost increase is gradual (due to taxes) or not (due to the market). Personally, I just hope I never have to retire.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974818 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974818 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion Here's a nice little article on MSN.com just on this situation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23637018

One thing they covered which I forgot about...Retirees. How are they suppose to cope with the increase in gas Tax??? Move to a high crime area in the city for cheaper rent?? Great solution...]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974628 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974628 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975617 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975617 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Just stuck my head inside a Toyota showroom. The majority of cars on the floor were small models; Yaris, Corolla, Marix. Last year it would have been trucks, Avalons amd SUVs, together with Camrys.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975219 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#975219 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion OK, maybe I misunderstood. I agree that any tax increase would have to be gradual to reduce the impact on the poor and on the overall economy, I would only be in favor of a tax increase that took full effect over about a decade. I would rather see the cost of gasoline increase by $0.50 - 0.75 per year for 10 years than see it take a $2 or 3 jump all at once. 

This I agree with...When it's slow it's far easier to adjust to. The all at once is causing major major problems for many of the working poor. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974811 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974811 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
OK, maybe I misunderstood. I agree that any tax increase would have to be gradual to reduce the impact on the poor and on the overall economy, I would only be in favor of a tax increase that took full effect over about a decade. I would rather see the cost of gasoline increase by $0.50 - 0.75 per year for 10 years than see it take a $2 or 3 jump all at once. At least that way the tax could be adjusted down if the actual cost increased quickly, that would help to insulate the consumers from the full impact of whatever OPEC does next. At the moment, europe has that flexibility (if they could afford to lose the tax revenue), but the U.S. customer would see the full increase. This gradual tax would also help both the consumers and the auto manufactures adjust, most people will replace their car within 10 years anyway. Hopefully, the gradual tax would also reduce consumption to the point that increases in imported oil costs would have less impact.

BTW, I'm not surprised that a crappy apartment in boston is now $1200, they were about $500 when I lived in the area 25 years ago. It was still cheaper than living in the suburbs, because you didn't need to own a car if you lived in the city.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974632 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974632 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion You're missing the point totally....And I believe that you're taking a totally naive look at the situation. You are saying it's BETTER to move....It would be cheaper to sell your car and move to the city....Well that's just plain (shall I say stupid). It's NOT that simple...And in many many cases it's IMPOSSIBLE. You're also making many many assumptions...like these people rent..and don't OWN their house...That they have the money for a down payment for a new place...that they'll be able to find even find work. It's really easy to think of all these solutions when YOU'RE NOT the one it affects.

At least increasing the price gradually with taxes will provide some control over the rate of increase and give them some time to do something for themselves.  


I agree that TAXING GRADUALLY is fine...but that's NOT what was proposed....And that's NOT what I was ever arguing against. If you read the OP or my comments I'm against adding this tax all at once...A gradual tax is fine....a hugh increase in tax all at once is very very difficult to adjust to.

What's the alternative, do nothing and wait for the cost of energy to increase suddenly and catch them completely by surprise? 


You're saying the ONLY solution is to TAX it??? Please tell me that's not so. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974621 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974621 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
And what would you do if you found yourself in that position tomorrow; better yet, what would our grandparents do (my grandfather got on a boat by himself to find work when he was about 14)? I hope I would do whatever it took to improve my situation, and I hope I would do it much quicker that the decade that it would take the phase in a gasoline tax. I also don't think the price of gasoline would be my biggest concern at that point. "Support system" or not, I hope I would be living someplace where I could support myself by the end of the month.

Why is this any different than all the folks who end up out of work when some local employer closes down, and why aren't they gone so fast that their shadow has to hurry to keep up? I really don't understand the logic of waiting for someone else to solve your problems.


"A good portion of people who live below the poverty level in this country live in very very rural areas in this country. I'm sorry...but to tell these people that the ONLY way to correct this major increase in Gas prices/tax is to move is just plain WRONG."

That is a social problem that goes well beyond the price of energy, and the price of energy is going up (way up) regardless of tax policy. No one is going to tell people where (or how) to live, but most of these folks will probably not be driving anything in 5 or 10 years anyway, they will either move or they will be walking (it's unlikely any local government is going to provide public transportation to the kinds of areas you are talking about). At least increasing the price gradually with taxes will provide some control over the rate of increase and give them some time to do something for themselves.

What's the alternative, do nothing and wait for the cost of energy to increase suddenly and catch them completely by surprise? Or would you rather aggressively transfer wealth so that folks "who live below the poverty level" can put $6/gallon gasoline in their old 10 mpg cars and drive to their minimum wage jobs? Neither of those alternatives seem very responsible either.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974421 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974421 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Just like any city, there are cheap places to live in boston (not very nice but cheap), just ask some of the thousands of college students who live there on the cheap. 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I have a college student living there (MIT). It is NOT cheap at all....Try a 1 bedroom for $1200 in a run down building with rats and roaches. The ONLY way many of these students make it is by getting 4-5 students and all paying a piece of the rent. My daughter is currently in a 2 bedroom apartment with 4 other girls...there use to be a total of 6, but one girl dropped out. It's in a little bit nicer neighborhood..but every time the T passes by you can feel it. Cost - $2500/mo. ]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974613 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974613 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Just like any city, there are cheap places to live in boston (not very nice but cheap), just ask some of the thousands of college students who live there on the cheap. I'm sure there are cheap places to live in NH too, but their public transportation wasn't exactly "state of the art" when I lived there.

As the price of fuel increases, these "low wage" workers will simply move closer to their jobs or find jobs closer to where they live. The "low wage" employers will be forced to pay more to either attract local workers or make their commute worthwhile. I worked in boston for years, you could clearly watch the "professionals" commuting into the city on the subway while the "service workers" (who lived in the city) commuted out to the suburbs. Living in boston may not be cheap, but it's cheaper than living in the suburbs of boston.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974437 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974437 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that increasing any specific tax is the only way to do anything. Taxing new vehicles that get combined EPA mileage below 21.5 MPG doesn't affect them at all.

BTW, I'm sure there are some dangerous areas of Boston where someone can rent an efficiency for a very low cost. I used to work with a lot of people that traveled an hour or two from rural areas to get to work. They drove old cars and carpooled. They also made low wages, which is why the company hired them rather than locals in the first place.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974230 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974230 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion Mike, I'm really not trying to be insensitive to "lower income people"; but if you or I made $10/hour, would we be living in a rented house in NH trying to pay for our own heat and driving our own car a considerable distance to work? I certainly wouldn't, 

You're making a BIG assumption here...that these people have been poor all their adult lives. That they grew up poor....Many many people had it THRUST upon them....loss of job, loss of spouse...injury or sickness. It is NOW very very difficult to move and find work in a different town or state. Plus loose any support system that you might have.

I certainly wouldn't, I would be living in the cheapest available apartment near boston and the "T" line (without a car) and looking for a better job (if not a couple of better jobs). 


The cheapest apartment in Boston is probably 2-3 times the cheapest apartment price in NH. Cost of living in NH with a car will be cheaper then living in Boston.

If necessary, I would be on the bus to another part of the country to find a better job and/or more affordable living, and I bet you would too. 


A good portion of people who live below the poverty level in this country live in very very rural areas in this country. I'm sorry...but to tell these people that the ONLY way to correct this major increase in Gas prices/tax is to move is just plain WRONG.

]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974215 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974215 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
I don't want this to sound nasty, but these arguments are based on the assumption that everyone in this country needs to live in a suburban or rural house and own a car. One could argue that the person who has a hard time putting food on the table needs to be living in less expensive housing near public transportation, and definitely does not need to own a vehicle. Folks who live in areas that are not served by public transportation have made a decision to live there, and they may not have the income to support that decision. If someone is spending a considerable portion of their income on transporting themselves to a low paying job, the price of gasoline may not be their biggest problem.

Mike, I'm really not trying to be insensitive to "lower income people"; but if you or I made $10/hour, would we be living in a rented house in NH trying to pay for our own heat and driving our own car a considerable distance to work? I certainly wouldn't, I would be living in the cheapest available apartment near boston and the "T" line (without a car) and looking for a better job (if not a couple of better jobs). If necessary, I would be on the bus to another part of the country to find a better job and/or more affordable living, and I bet you would too.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974032 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974032 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion That will cover only part of it..and for the real poor it's still a problem. They don't pay enough in income tax to cover what they'll be spending on the increased gas tax.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974017 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#974017 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#972317 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#972317 GMT Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion The PROBLEM with increasing tax so fast is it's really going to hurt the lower income people. The less you earn the harder it is to adjust to major increases in spending. There are people in this country who work 50-60 hours a week have a hard time just putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their head. And when you now ask them to spend $10-$20 more per week....it's a MAJOR BURDEN to them and their budget. What food item do they give up?? What days in the winter are you asking them NOT to heat their house?? The guy they rent their house from isn't lowering the rent for them....The food prices aren't going down...in fact it'll be going up because of the increase in transportation cost....Heating oil will also go up because of the increase in transportation cost.

It's a lot easier for lower income people to adjust to these increases when it's slow. To all of a sudden thrust them into it will hurt many many hard working families all across this country.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#971615 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#971615 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
And their choice of cars.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#978611 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#978611 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Brittany is on the news? What channel?]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970222 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970222 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
I believe that people in general are forgetfull. Charge them a big bill for a gas guzzler and they will whine and complain and forget about it in about as long as it takes for brittany spears to show up in the news.

If you charge them every time they fill up - then something might happen. BUT - don't tax for the sake of changing behavour - tax to pay for real costs - just do it in a way that results in people taking action and not just complaining for a while and then forgetting.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970219 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970219 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
I agree with Craig about who will pay. The tax will be passed on to the customer, and possibly to the ones who buy the popular cars and trucks. The popular cars might be the small ones, and that doesn't seem appropriate. Besides, the manufacturers have the new CAFE regulations to deal with. If you want the user to pay, maybe you would prefer a fuel tax to a guzzler tax. Assuming, of course, you could hold your nose and pay for any tax. Would that curb their habit?]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970022 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#970022 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Sure, you can do that. However, the manufacturers will simply pass the cost on to their customers (not necessarily the same customers who bought the vehicles with poor mileage).]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969420 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969420 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969413 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969413 GMT Re: Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969236 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#969236 GMT Re: Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion point taken - but I don't believe that it's ok to something wrong just be cause you did it before or are doing it in other places.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967454 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967454 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Well, I think that ship sailed a while ago; much of the tax code is based on trying to influence behavior. Why do we have tax deductions for charitable contributions, for retirement savings, for home mortgages, etc.? We offer corporations all kinds of deductions for R&D, we don't tax churches at all.]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967448 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967448 GMT Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion We shouldn't be taxing people for the purpose of changing their behavour. If we do then let's tax people for having unprotected sex because it can transmit disease.

We should tax to recover the ACTUAL cost of the behavour. The government takes a lot of your income and other taxes and spends them on road and bridge maintenance. So if you use teh roads and bridges alot (i.e you use a lot of gas) you pay more in tax (because each gallon of gas is taxed). The tax should be high enough to cover all the things the government is doing to support our driving habbits and our income tax should be reduced by the amount that is currently being spent on those things.

Shifting the payment for road and bridge maintenance from the general taxes we pay to a tax on teh gas we use shifts the burden onto those who use the infrastructure more - as it should be. As an added side effect - if we can see the REAL cost of our driving - we will likely find alternate ways that use less fuel.

]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967442 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967442 GMT Re: Re: Old Fuel Tax Suggestion
Nope. There are two problems. First, there is reliance on foreign oil, whether it's Mexico, Canada or OPEC the money goes out of the country. It's driving the value of the dollar down dramatically and increasing inflation because we live in a global economy. The second issue is the lack of responsibility we citizens take for our government and the way it runs. The deficit was likely about $160 billion last year. But that doesn't include the "off-budget" items like social security. The off budget social security bill was almost $600 billion. That's almost a trillion dollars of borrowing last year alone. But it's off budget, how could it be a problem? It's called off budget because the American public would go nuts if they saw a trillion dollar budget deficit. Does it bother you? Where will the money come from? From you and me. Now, later, whenever, the citizens pay for it. Corporations should pay for it? That's us, too. I suggest we act like responsible, interested adults and take care of business.

What do you do while you're sitting around, Scudder?]]> http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967054 http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/876410.page#967054 GMT