I think there has to be a separation between graffiti art and "tagging", which is usually just a graffiti name written with permanent marker or spray paint. These adorn the sides of buildings, buses, street signs, mailboxes, bathroom stalls and often trucks and vans. This is a public nuisance and an expense to taxpayers. The only message there is a disrespect for public spaces and private property. However, "pieces", thoughtfully created and carefully executed, are indeed public art. Public art itself can carry a powerful message, and can be a beautiful expression of the defiant and rebellious spirit that has shaped this country for so long. Unfortunately, like so many forms of expression, cheap mimicry has given it a bad name. And of course, the difficulty remains in selecting clear criteria that separate vandalism from public art.

There is no difficulty here, just stupidity. The "decoration" or if you like, the vandalizing of public or private propoerty is a crime, period. It dosn't matter what anyone thinks is or is not art.

Tagging is a competition -- usually between young men -- to get their name or crew's name up in as wide an area as possible. It's the same type of competition as football, doing the best trick in skateboarding etc... Males compete against each other, and this is just another forum for that. Until we understand the psychology behind the practice of tagging, it won't stop. These kids need more outlets for expression, but most arts programs have been cuts in schools, so graf and tagging have gone up.

psychology is the opiate of the masses. When and how did psychology become the foundation for societal and cultural orginization? The answer lies in the grave that is the sixties. The insane notion that because one can trace a psychology "reason" no matter how tenuous, for some form of odious human behavior, does not indicate a "reason" to accept the behavior as inevitable or "normal". Are we talking dogs or human beings here?

I believe the post is referring to human beings. Please correct me if I am wrong. Sounds a bit odd to me for it to be talking about dogs.
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Regardless of the artistic merits, value of expression, or other positive aspects one may find in graffiti, it is a bastardization of the concept of the term "public art" to include graffiti within such realm so long as it chooses as its canvas the private property of others who are unwillingly forced to bear the cost of such expression through the defilement or destruction of such personal property.

Only to the extent that graffiti is expressed upon a canvas with the consent of the canvas owner is it deserving to be considered public art, or any kind of art.

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Are we talking dogs or human beings here?
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there used to be so much more graffiti. what's all the fuss about?
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I am amazed by graffiti. How can people without a home make such nice artwork?

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I have also sesen some great grafittit!
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I have seen some great artwork as well!
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i'd like to know why people get so upset about graffiti?

i've lived in san francisco for close to 20 years. this is an urban environment with all the pro's and con's that brings. if i wanted pristine walls devoid of character and life, i'd live in the suburbs. to me graffiti is part of city living and for the most part i enjoy it. i'd also like to note that i think this is the "cleanest" san francisco has ever been. there used to be so much more graffiti. what's all the fuss about?

Kay,
If you were a grown up you might understand why painting or defacing others peoples property, and including public property, is unacceptable in a free society. You probably think that public property is "your" property. Well it is not, get that, it's not your property, it's our property, and I don't approve or condone your juvinile deliquent friends writng on our walls.

I'm 64 years old and totally agree with Kay. Street art is one reason I live in SF. And yes, it's art -- the purest kind, not for profit and arising as personal expression rather than the sterile constructions that emerge from art school.

What about ADDS.. do you you like looking at fucking adds all over your city.. graffiti is a natural response to that.. why should we have to look at advertisements all day long. we dont pay for it.. they.. the giant corporations do. they run everything. Graffiti is human nature.. adds are just legal graffiti.. and they want you to buy something.. Graffiti is a pure form of expression not clouded by profit. its just pure. This will never end. graffiti has such a strong following all over the world. you cant deny it. its here to stay. its used in advertisement.. the style that has been created by Graffiti is exploited all the time in the media.. and they want to get rid of it..?? the city should provide places for graffiti all over the place. or dedicate abandoned buildings for graffiti.. why do they care so much about abandoned buildings..????
Graffiti is not going to go away.. and the more the city tries to hate on it the madder its going to make the people who do Graffiti. and all you yuppie ass fools on here hating need to move back to your suburb and stop making our ret high.. the real people of SF. this city is known for being a meca for Graffiti. people come here just for the graffiti. learn to appreciate it..
hate the adds not the art..

if none of this graffiti got cleaned up, could you imagine how crappy it would look?

i think it's important to remember that during your 20 years, there have been 20 years of people (not you) cleaning up, every day, every week, year after year...

20 years of cleaning is exactly what allows you to appreciate a limited amount of graffiti in the "cleanest" way.

they can thank taggers for their jobs because they wouldent have them without graffiti

I have just finished listening to the radio program, "Graffiti: Public Art or Nuisance" and reading over the online forum comments. To me, the entire conflict, especialy the comment about graffiti jobs, revolves around one or two economic fallacies or concepts. One is the economic fallacy of the broken window (very analogeous to graffiti) and the other is the concept of private property (which I won't even both discussing here). If we could just infuse a little of the right philosopy into the local elementary school curriculum starting in pre-school or kindergarten. It would have a great impact on this graffiti phenomenon (and other related phenomenon such as caring for the rest of the environment and one's fellow man, etc.). I would encourage the graffiti job commenter and those like minded individuals to read "The Broken Windows", a chapter in Henry Hazlit's "Economics in One Lesson" (just google "Economics in One Lesson"). You are all in my prayers. I shed tears for all of you on both sides of this issue. My heart goes out to the last radio show caller, the mother who commented about her tagger son; that she was shocked and saddened by her son's behavior, but was trying to teach him to be responsible (it's the thought of such good loving mothers like her that keep me just wanting to shoot these youngsters). Regards, -S.

Because it is civilized to live in a place where people do not feel the need to deface public property because they cannot control their own testosterone urges and who feel they have the right to impose their views on everyone else.

Well I think a lot of people think that it makes the city/town look bad. Some of it does look really good, but a lot of it just makes the city/town look more "ghetto" if you ask me.
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If the property owner gives permission for someone to mark/decorate their property, art is in the eye of the beholder. But when individuals just write nonsensical acronyms without permission, it's just crap that property owners have to spend money to clean up.

Graffiti is definitely an art. look at the work of banksy as a perfect example

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when i first came to san francisco in my early twenties i lived with graf artists, basically art school kids using the city as their canvas. that seemed ok to me then. but now that im in my mid thirties and i ride the bus it really bothers me when a mob of young kids (high school?) "bomb" the back of the bus. maybe we should focus less on tunnels and more on public spaces. let the kids find the alleys and tunnels to express themselves and give them walls throughout the city designated for such acts.

Graffiti can be artistic, but IT IS NOT ART WHEN IT IS PLACED ON PUBLIC PROPERTY OR ON MY HOME OR BUSINESS WITHOUT CONSENT! True art is a matter of pride by the artist, who purchases the media and stands by it and explains it to admirers. In Malcolm Gladwell's words, graffiti becomes a "tipping Point" for neighborhood deterioration.

i agree. it ghettoizes the environment.

I live south of market near the hall of justice. Graffiti is a big issue in our neighborhood. It's demoralizing and does not define my neighborhood or my city.

I recently reported some taggers who hit a very popular wall in my neighborhood. I thought nothing would come of it. I was amazed at the police response. I called non-emergency, they got the description from me, and called me back in 10 minutes! They'd caught them the alley over. Three cop cars responded; they had them on the sidewalk like murder suspects and I, ID everyone of them. This is my city and my neighborhood and you do not have the right to right your name on my wall. And yes, there is a difference between Art and scribing your name on someones wall.

I should note these, were 20 something white kids--GROW UP! After the arrest, the wall was completely cleaned within a week.

thank you SFPD & Mr. Henderson.

i wish muni was as responsive

your a idiot.. i hope somebody writes on your face.. you stupid yuppie.. get out of this city..
go tell on people hurting somebody.. its people like you who ruin this city.. i would love to know where you live. cus I would fuck your house up.. with beautiful Graffiti.
nobody likes a rat. you probably aint from this city either.. you just moved here to try to fit it..
and by doing that your part of the gentrification..
go back to where ever you came from

some artists feel that they have little control over the urban environment. we are inundated with billboards and architecture and government design bad good or indifferent. aesthetics are personal and like many things everyone wants to be represented.

I am astounded that San Francisco makes property owners legally responsible for cleaning up graffiti on their property. There would be a public uprising if a robbery or rape victim were made responsible for the crimes they were victim of. People who are attacked by graffiti are victims of "property rape".

listening to your conversation, i wonder how you and your panel feels about the overload of advertising that's in the city? if a bus is covered end to end with advertising, i see that as an invasion that i have no control over.

visual pollution for prophet. does money make it all okay?

i agree with you. we are assaulted all day long. but both bother me.

What about artists like Sheppard Fairey, with his ubiquitous Andre The Giant posters? Those aren't placed legally, as far as I know, but those aren't taken down. Is there a distinction drawn between graphic art like that versus “spray can art?” And why is this? Seems like the distinction is slippery.

he successfully transitioned to public approval i guess.

Our community codes were enacted after extensive public hearings by our elected representatives for the social and economic well-being and quality of life of the community, to protect our investment in public property and the dignity of pubic space. No one is above the law or has rights that exclude the rights of others.

I live in Oakland, not San Francisco, and frankly, when you see "tagging" here it means you may have gang activity in your neighborhood - NOT good. Full disclosure - I'm a citizen member of a local community policing organization, and I regularly report tags to the city. A set of initials (and an obscenity) scribbled on a telephone pole with silver spray paint is NOT ART. It is vandalism, and if left uncorrected it's a sign to other vandals that this neighborhood doesn't care.

Oakland has numerous beautiful murals, done on contract and by consent, but the key word here is consent. Without that, it's exactly like breaking a window - permanent damage to property that the owner has to pay to clean up. I'm just listening to a comment about "passion" and "skill" and "they really care", and you know, It's Still Illegal, and it still damages the neighborhood where I live. If they love art, let them buy some canvas.

those are not "gang" tags. 99% of graffiti is done by people that love the culture of graffiti. calling it GANG related is a scare tactic. put out there to raise the fear and keep the public scared.