Post Election Update:
With 95% of the votes counted, Proposition 8 has passed with 52% of Californians voting to amend the state constitution to eliminate the rights of same-sex couples to marry. What do you think? What does this outcome say about California? How did you vote and why? With the electorate split nearly 50-50 on an issue that is so personal for so many on both sides, what happens now?
All eyes are on Prop 8 this year as Californians decide whether or not to amend the state constitution to prohibit same sex couples from marrying. Is this an issue of civil rights or religious freedom? What about the separation of church and state? With only a slim majority required to pass the measure, is California's constitution headed to the drafting table?
California already has strong domestic partnerships, but many proponents of Prop 8 invoke the civil rights movement and call domestic partnerships a discriminating example of "separate but equal." Many opponents of the proposition say marriage is not a civil issue, but a question of religious beliefs.
But what business does government have in sacramental language in the first place? Should government leave the marriage business entirely, and hand out only civil unions, allowing other institutions to use the term "marriage," thereby keeping religious beliefs and civil rights separate?
How do you think Californians on both sides will move forward once this issue is decided?
Two simple points and one was raised in the intro to this board. The government and conservative religious groups should not own the word marriage.
Marriage should be decided between two people, their religion and their church or community.
California should not marry anyone, they should simply provide the legal framework marraige is built arround and then any church that wants to marry gay or straight people can make that decision on their own.
The state should never force a church to marry any group of people if it violates their fundamental beliefs.
The state should also allow any church that wants to marry gay people to do so. It is none of the states business. Remember seperation of church and state?
Irony - The Mormon church sent 25 million to California to help pass this initiative. Do they really think they should be preaching to anyone about marriage between one man and one woman. If it was not forced on them, they might still be practicing marriage between one man and multiple women.
Seeing how many of the responses are on the one, fair minded side, one has to ask the question, what is going on here? Is there at least the possibility of voter fraud? I don't know I don't have a definite answer. However I suspect the possibility of fraud and here is why. Currently there is no accountability which would spot possible voter fraud, and it is straightforward for politicians to perpetrate such a fraud. I have to wonder if it isn’t a common practice considering all the other stuff we know is always going on in hard fought campaigns, especially considering the amount of money that has been thrown around on Proposition 8.
First, to sell votes is fairly straight forward if you have a lot of political connections. Second, the mechanism of selling votes is greatly aided by California's mail in vote structure. Vote buyers would have to have accountability for the money they spend and the mail in vote structure provides this. All one has to sell a vote is to put a valid signature on the ballad without filling it out and then trade it for cash with the vote buyer. The vote buyer fills it out as he pleases and then mails it in and at that point there is no direct evidence that any fraud exists. In some precincts in the Bay Area walk-in vote is often 80% of the vote and in at least in one large precinct is 90% of the vote. (this is including mail-in only counties).
What is more, the only way to check for systematic disparity between walk-in and mail-in voting would be to go to all 50 some California Counties since mail-in voting results are not consolidated or tracked at the state level. The numbers of mail-in votes are tracked, but not the totals.
Also, even here in Santa Clara County the mail-in results are hidden in three ways. First, the totals for mail-in votes are not called by the name of mail-in votes in the official record of vote. Second, the Precinct record of mail-in ballads are intermixed with the Precinct walk-in votes in alternating rows of the same column which makes it difficult to check the separate totals. Third, mail-in only Precincts are treated together with the walk-in voting Precincts and never separately totaled anywhere.
Has mail in fraud happened before? I don’t know. But I noticed that in the February Presidential primary that all for Indian Gaming propositions lost in the walk-in vote and won in the mail in vote for Santa Clara County, and in the largest Precinct in the County the point spread between walk-in voting and mail-in voting was 15 points for the gaming issues. I can think of reasons that would explain these discrepancies so I don’t know if there was fraud or no, but I think to would be interesting to go around to the other 50 some counties to see if it was true there as well.
There are other ways fraud is possible. Did you know that the number of votes thrown out for most close races is several times as large as the difference between the number winning and losing votes? This doesn’t have to be!
We can do much better than we are doing with vote counting. There are ways of fool proofing the system, and actually properly applied technology could help. There a lot of ideas how to fix the system, and systematically taking full advantage of the right methods could make the system a whole lot better. After all we can go to a bank or pay a bill and count on full accountability throughout the process so why not do the same with the awful, archaic California voting system where the state records have to be manually examined on paper without the benefit of modern electronic accounting practices?
Why is your intrepetation of God any better than anyone elses. There are many people who believe in God that do not agree with you. Are they the fake Christians like all the fake Americans elected Obama. The arrogance of the religious right astounds me. There is a reason why we need a stronger seperation of church and state and it is to protect us from self ritious people. Do you realize your argument was used to keep two people from different races from marrying not too long ago. They were just as sure that religion made them right. Religion has been used to justify discrimination of different forms for centuries in this country and around the world and during the times it was used, it was always justified by God as interpreted by the small minded. But you think this time is different. You think finally your interpretation of God has it right and discrimination is just this time. Do you really think slave owners weren't just as sure God was behind them? Do you really think the Nazis thought God was not behind them. What about seperate but equal in the South, they had their own bathrooms and schools so God surely thought that was right. God save us from your predjudice folowers. Oh, and can you stay out of the government please and keep things in your church. Thank you.
You had better use the word nature instead god. I am against same sex marriages. It is unnatural. I can not even imagine such incidents to happen.
bbq grills
Society has become tolerant of adult homosexuality. "Gay Marriage" is about the public recognition of "Same Sex" relationships as completely normal and equal to opposite sex relationships. But if Gay Marriage is equal to Streight Marriage, than it will be OK for teenage boys to date other boys at puberty, (and girls can date girls). The parents will not be able to interfere. This is where the issue is. Parents who consider Homosexuality inferior will be forced to let their sond experiment with other boys. I am a man who loves boys. If I am to be considered a pervert, than Gays should also be considered perverts. Nothing whould make me happier to see teenage boys kissing & holding hands, but I do not believe Gay relationships are equal to traditional marriages.
This is not simply about gays wanting equal rights; domestic partnerships already provide for this. This about homosexuals and their twisted desire to have their deviant behavior accepted as normal. The notion that our children should be taught to believe that it is normal for men to sodomize each other, marry each other, parent innocent children... is as crazy as it would be for any species to embrace... especially logical humans who understand the laws of nature, GOD, and mankind. This world would cease to exist if homosexuality was our genesis; 2 men, 2 women cannot have babies.
So by your logic only straight couples intending to procreate should be able to marry? Your bigotted comments should cause you shame but racists don't feel shame either. They just have to keep their hatred to themselves now because they they know that form intollerance is no longer accepted as a normal. Get ready though because your time of accepted biggotry is coming to an end. Look at Prop 22 from 8 years ago. It passed easily. 8 years later, your hatred and intolerance of those that are not your idea of normal barely passed by a few percentage points. 8 more years and those who support Prop Hate(8) don't have a chance. Intolerance only lasts so long until it is discovered for what it is, simple ignorance. No one is going to tell you what to teach your children in the privacy of your home. If you want to teach them to hate different people than you and call them deviant, you can teach that hate. I'm sure some people in the Southern states and all over rural different parts of this country still teach their children racism in the home. We can't stop that either but luckily we have grown enough as a country to take a step beyond the hate in one area of our society with or without your agreement. In a few years, when more people become tolerant, your poor hatred will have to be something you are ashamed of speaking out loud like most racists feel uncomfortable speaking about their hate now. Well that is unless it is masked by calling someone unpatriotic or friends with terrorists. I can not wait for the day when your hatred filled idea of God is banned from government policy.
This is not about hatred. I don't hate gays. You hear what you want hear and see what you want to see. Racism and homosexuality do not even belong in the same sentence together, and it is beyond ignorant to compare filthy, immoral behavior to those oppressed because of the color of their skin. I would not expect you to understand this principle since you stop at nothing to force your disgusting beliefs and life choices on society. And if you think that innocent little children exposed to homosexual dogma are not in grave danger then you also probably believe that AIDS is not a gay disease even though the overwhelming majority of those suffering from it are gay men in gay lifestyles.
Additionally, if you think that there is such a thing as the "Gay Church", and that GOD honors those caught up in this lie, you are in for a very rude awakening. GOD says "I will honor those who honor me". Repent, in other words, change direction... and GOD will help and bless your life as HE intended not as you intended.
I agree with so many of the previous statements - outrage, embarassment, this should not be legislated, etc. I support challenging the legality of stripping the rights of a group of people. Didn't we, by electing Barack Obama as president, demonstrate to the world our sophistication and progress against biased treatment of groups of people?
Worse, is that the financial muscle that pushed support for Prop 8 over the edge came from an out of state entity! Since when can a singular world-wide organization fund any part of our state issue and weight in so heavily in our voting process? I also support new legislation making it illegal for non-CA financial support for our state voting decisions.
I'm not a fan of court room resolution but I'm very angered by the passing of Prop 8.
I agree with you that in an ideal world, the courts would not decide difficult issues. The problem with social justice issues, at times, is that the popular opinion has tended toward discrimination. Without Brown vs. The Board of Education, who knows how long the Southern States would have taken to eliminate seperate but equal. I would definitely prefer we had voted no on Prop 22. If we had, Prop 8 may never have happened. You can not re-write history but if 22 had never passed, the court case causing the Prop 8 people to push their agenda may never have gotten off the ground. Keep in mind, the people that argue they are just restoring the law to how "GOD" intended are the ones that threw the first pre-emptive strike in 2000 with Prop 22. Prop 22 did not even legalize same sex marriage. It simply ensured we would not have to honor marriages from other states if they legalized same sex marriage. So if you look back on Prop 22 the question was much less devisive since it did not take away any current rights, it just ensured we discriminated against married couples from other states or countries that might allow same sex marriage prior to us. Prop 22 passed by a resounding margin without any where near the out of state money or scare tactic predjudice. I am only aware of one member of my extended family directly affected by this decision but one member of my family losing a right extended to everyone else, is too many. I made the mistake of sitting back and quietly supporting the No on 8 side. The next time this issue comes up, it will get my dollars and my time out on the election trail. I believe the younger generation is less tollerant of this hatred and if the trend toward younger voters continues, they will help us restore the constitution to its former direction of less discrimination, not more.
I am always angry when God is used for discrimination or to justify intolerance. It is the arrogance of the people who believe their interpretation of God is infallable that always makes me mad.
And Yes on 8 people, please stop trying to say you are not voting for discrimination. Just admit it and we can have a more honest argument back and forth. If you want to say you believe in discrimination based on your belief in God just say it. Stop trying to hide behind the word deviant, pervert, or against nature. Just keep in mind the same arguement was made against inter racial marriage not too long ago. Why wan't God right then? I wonder how many of you still believe that form of marriage should still be illigal. Oops I guess you have a President now.
"Stripping the rights ofpeople" ? ? What rediculous language! Nobody is stripping away rights. Gays already have the right to form unions & adopt children. California is a part of the USA. So you want to seceed now? Gays already have their rights, but it is not enough. Thay want TOTAL equality with heterosexual couples. It will never happen. I love teenage boys & you call mne a pervert! Good luck hypocrates!
Please stop equating your pedophilia to homosexuality. I am not either but your argument is insulting. One argument deals with the social choices of two consenting adults. The other is an adult taking advantage of a child. Go post a site that is more symathetic to your perversions. The slippery slope argument insults us all.
Your sexuality is a pervesion. The only reason it is accepted is because it is between "consenting adults". Nothing would make me happier than to see junior-high school boys holding hands & kissing and dating. This is exactly what you get with Gay Marriage Equality and you know it full well! Hetero Parents will never consent to TOTAL equality of "Gayness". Live with it and stop demanding TOTAL legitimatization of your "alternate" sexuality! It will never happen!
Perhaps U need to be insulted. Your arrogant superiority is an insult to me. U dare to call me a "Pedophile" and tell me to get lost. Your Gay feelings are about LOVE. But my emmotional feelings for teen-boys are a CRIME! Are Affraid of the truth? Legitimize "Gayness" and see how fast teenge boys take advantage of their new freedom! Remenber the 1970s? How many millions of innocent men were infected? Wait till you see "free-sex-teen-boys" of the future. It will be great fun to watch and U Gays will have your victory!
Yo idiot, I am not Gay. You made that assumption because your feelings were hurt. I don't care how many times you try to equate it, mollesting children does not equate to being Gay. I am hetero but do not want to tolerate a society that discriminates against those that have a different sexual orientation than me. Those that equate same sex feelings to pedophilia, that I have no problem discrimating against since I had a childhood experience with a person of your ilk. It did not make me gay but it did make me hate pedophiles so if you think I am not morally superior, you are fooling yourself. If you control yourself, more power to you. But don't equate yourself to my friends and family members who have healthy adult loving relationships.
That is fine. So U R not Gay. Sexuality beginns at puberty. Make Gay Marriage equal. Pubescant boys will date eachother. In fact pre-pubescant boys will form couples too. Open up the door! I am all for it! Now people like U with their phoney stories about being "molested" can finally shut up. U R the ones spreading HATE & intollerance. Make GAY MARRIAGE EQUAL. I am all for it kids!
Phony stories huh. You are not worth any more arguments. Post all you want. I am done discussing morality with someone who has the perverted idea that allowing gay marriage will make everyone gay and validate your attraction to boys. I have wasted enough time with your idiotic suppositions and dismisalls. You seriously need help and I hope you find it. You have what is called a circular argument with nothing to back it up. If boys or girls are gay, societies acceptance will not make them any more or less gay. You seem to think your perversions run rampant in the society and equating it to being Gay makes you more normanl. It just is not so. So you can now have the last word because pedophiles only deserve so much attention before the argument becomes an excercise in the absurd. Enjoy your fantasy ideas and stay away from teens or go to jail.
Yes, PHONEY stories. Just like kreeps who went after Chatholic priests. They had their boyhood fun and made a fat prifit too! I was a teenage boy once. I know how horney boys are. I know what will happen if they are told they can form sexual unions without shame. The 1970s should be example enough to inform about indescriminate male sexual drive. But whu argue? The Geanie is out of the bottle. Teen boys are already going at it! So please don't get too shook up. Maybe this is Mother Natures way of controlling overpopulation . . .
I only got to listen to part of the discussion on the radio today.
I have a question for those against Prop 8. Perhaps one of you can help me. If gay marriage is allowed why will the state not be compelled to prosecute anyone (particilarly religious leaders) who refuse( on issues of conscience), to marry a gay couple?
I would be more sympathetic to gay marriage if it didn't infringe on someone elses right to freedom of religion and\ or religious speech without fear of prosecution.
Can someone nicely answer this for me?
This is a conflict I had within me while debating how vote on prop 8.
Secondly, do those who oppose prop 8 also support other non traditional forms of marriage like minors, siblings, polygamy?Is this a slippery slope? I'm not trying to be facetious. Is this not logically consistent?
Thanks
azvaia, The logic is not there to force a church to marry anyone. After all, to marry by that body is to accept those doctrines. It would be as ridiculous as a Buddhist couple suing the Mormon church for not marrying them according to Buddhist faith. It makes no sense! One can sue over anything but I would think frivolous cases would be dismissed.
azvaia, The logic is not there to force a church to marry anyone. After all, to marry by that body is to accept those doctrines. It would be as ridiculous as a Buddhist couple suing the Mormon church for not marrying them according to Buddhist faith. It makes no sense! One can sue over anything but I would think frivolous cases would be dismissed.
What is the big advantage to having a marriage? Aren't all rights currently provided (i.e., domestic partner allows one partner on the other's insurance; joint tenancy allows each to own property; wills allow assets to remain with survivor; adoption rights are available). I know of no other rights one could want - though I am not clear on the tax issues for a domestic partnership compared to a married couple. One tact could be to confront the tax issue if it is not in your favor. If it is, then I fail to see what is missing from a domestic partner compared to a married couple.
Filing law suits doesn't sit well with me because the process has high cost written all over it. And, it seems more of an exercise in pushing an agenda rather than truly pursuing rights.
Finally - the pedophile comment above is totally out of place in any forum. I recommend that you either not joke like that or you get help ASAP.
Look, if you are suggesting by "out of state funding" that a single entity, such as the Mormon church, is responsible for prop 8 passing, then you are crazy. Personally, I am a Christian and not a Mormon. I believe that the Mormon church is a cult and not the same thing as a true Christian, but that is a separate issue. Nevertheless, prop 8 passed because all of us who believe in honoring GOD and family voted for it. We, who reside in California and abroad, are sick to our stomachs about being force-fed the filthy, deviant behavior, and lifestyle choices of an extremely corrupt minority. Additionally, look at the AIDS population and the one group who is the overwhelming majority of these people; HOMOSEXUALS. If that, in and of itself, isn't "THE SIGN" that homosexuality is wrong in every sense of the word, then you refuse to understand and choose to cling to lies. WAKE UP!!! Even liberal California, as shown by the passing of prop 8, know right from wrong. In closing, don't let one group take credit for prop 8... Collectively, we passed it.
I think that a lot of money came from out of state religious groups to support prop 8 which should be illegal for a state election, imagine if someone put on the ballot 'should citizens be denied the right to get divorced'? Many groups would support that too. I think prop 8 should not have made it to the ballot as it is discriminatory and has already been decided on previously by the California Supreme Court. The constitution should give rights not take them away.
As a gay woman who has been in a committed relationship for 18 years, and the mother of 3, I can tell you that this election has totally changed my views as well as those of my children.
We have always taught acceptance of differences to our children….but no more. If the blacks and fundies want to play hardball, we can play too. They will be discriminated against in every possible way that I can…hopefully we can go back to the days where fear and hate reign in this country and they will see what their hatred has wrought.
I was at a gathering of about 100 GLBT people this morning, and we all agree that the time for passivity is over. We will now fight.
2 things I want to point out:
1. Saying the No on 8 Campaign is less organized than the Yes on 8 Campaign is incorrect. The No on 8 Campaign actually have an upper hand in terms of financial and vocal support from corporations, celebrities and powerful public figures (for example, California Teachers Association, Senator Dianne Feinstein, etc) And it gets more exposure in terms of air time on TV during the last weeks of election.
2. It is incorrect to relate the Proposition as fight between "Civil right vs religion belief". Large portion of California's population is made up of immigrants and minorities whose up bringing and culture firmly believe marriage is only between man and woman.
while the NO campaign may have had significant support, they failed to organize in the areas of the state where the proposition had the most support. i live in the central valley and saw absolutely endless numbers of yes on 8 signs - on laws, sides of highways, peoples cars - and NOT ONE no on 8 sign. there was no support for that side of it. while the campaign may have seen the center of the state as a "lost cause", this is what lost them the campaign. my county voted for it over 65%.
while it saddens me, i know personally many people who voted for the proposition. they weren't minorities or immigrants with different cultural upbringing, they were conservative whites. exit polls showed that among people who attend church regularly, the yes vote was over 85%. the number one reason i heard from them was that they didn't want it to "affect the children." while this may sound ridiculous to many, the yes campaign's commercials showing kids in the schools had an enormous impact. the no campaign did little to combat this part.
many people still have a kind of fear of homosexuality, especially those who do not live in the bay area. it's not as open and they are not exposed to gay couples enough to learn tolerance to it.
I was disturbed by the fact that californians voted against the same sex marriage.When I moved to this country I don't know what gay or lesbian is.At work place I heard people talking about it.I was able to accept the gay marriage because I see them as a fellow human being and I don't get bothered about them getting married.
Also when they defined marriages there wasn't that many gay people and so they don't define that marriage can be between two men or women.I feel if they are given the rights they will be a better couple than a man and women.
I promise my brothers and sisters of Gay/Lesbian couples that Hope is on their way
Chitra
Ok lets look at some solutions. All the absentee ballots have not been counted so how can you officially call Prop 8 passed. There are some legal questions already filed. How about a judge who can put it in limbo until these hearings happen and how about mass weddings in the meantime because it looks like those already married will stay that way. I mean stadium weddings all over california where thousands could get married at one time. I have a ministers licence so no prob at all for me to take part. Non Violent Revolution.
i am a Californian living out of the country, in Buenos Aires, Argentia. I have been following the election with NPR. I was so happy to find out that Barack Obama won the presidential election. I thought the people of the US could finally get something right after eight of the worst years in our history. Then i found out that prop 8 passed, and some of that euphoria went away. Of course i am still very happy Obama won, but it is tinged with a good bit of shame from being Californian. I am a straight American, but i am stronly for equal rights for ALL Americans, not just straight Americans. I know all of the supporters say that gays can have domestic partnership, but domestic partnership is NOT the same as marriage, there are other factors that are involved woth marriage that domestic partners do not get, for example immagration rights. (ok marriage is still not oked by the fed government, but getting a no on 8 would have been a good step forward.) Also seperate but equal is NOT equal.
I feel that eventually we will get it right and give all americans equal rights, but this is a BIG setback, and it may take quite a bit additional time.
The campaign for Prop 8 was disgraceful. The terrible lies that were told in the press by the proponents of the Proposition were appalling. This was especially the case because so many of these misleading advertisements were sponsored by religious organizations. Their actions should make these pious people hang their heads in shame for the sins they perpetrated in the shadow of their Deity. The proposition is legislated discrimination to be sure, and a blemish on the citizens of California. For shame.
I am black, a US citizen and a democrat; I did give it some thought but in the end I did not vote on prop 8 since I had mix feeling. First let me say I have noticed that the religious right have been divisive on many issues including abortion, the iraq war, etc and I do not appreciate their tactics. That being said my view is similar to Obama, marriage is between a man and a woman only; the rights that guy couples want as it relates to property, inheritance, visiting partners in hospital, etc are civil law-related issues which provision can be made for. I don't hate guys as individuals; my belief according to the Bible is that marriage was instituted by God, and that a person is not born guy but choose such lifestyle.
I am a heterosexual male, Catholic by denomination.
We "the people" need to understand, that thoughs who are considered a minority persons in this State are directly effected by this proposition, hetero and homosexuals alike.
If those who are minority persons in this State believe that the constitution does not apply to them, they are fundamental voters of "Yes" on prop. 8. To vote "Yes" on prop. 8 is to say that Latinos, Blacks, women, and all others who feel themselves a minority: should not be able to vote, should not be able to drive, should sit in the back of any public transportation, should have separate drinking fountains, etc. Marriage in this state is constitutionally not a representative doctrine of that of any religious institution. This proposition is about the rights of "all" minorities! Voting "Yes" is to say that any and all people can vote on amendments to the constitution that take away the rights to all human beings who consider themselves a minority persons.
I never knew that the State of California was a fundamental extension of any religious institution; if so, I as a Catholic would have voted "Yes" on those terms. I however, as a citizen of the U.S. and a resident of this State, know that the church and state are not "one." The sexual preference to one's being is a right to which all human beings are born with. Marriage is in this state is a natural right of one's being and is a fundamental principle for all who wish to be legally wed, minority or not!
Homosexuals are "minorities."
Michele Bertolli - in Italian "che" is pronounced "k" (me - k - el - ay)
I have really enjoyed now reading most of this debate on this forum. This is democracy at its roots, a little gritty and uneasy but we're hashing it out.
I have always had a question that I have been frankly afraid to ask of the gay people in my life for fear of being politically incorrect or just naive.
Is it a fact that being gay is a biological/genetic trait? I mean like being Black, or female, or a dwarf? In other words is the kind of sexual partner people want to have biologically \genetic in nature?
If this is the case then the gay marriage issue is truly a civil rights issue.
If not,Is the "gay rights" issue the same issue as the civil rights movement of the 60's?
Maybe this is one of the problems many African-Americans have had with prop 8?
11/05/2008 2:58:28 PM
