Last week, a gay couple say they were detained by security when they kissed on property owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This of course comes after last year's Proposition 8 in California, where the Church was instrumental in defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Wednesday, we're talking about what the continued controversy means for the LDS Church's relationship with the gay community and non-Mormons and how it's playing out among the faithful.
Reacting to the LDS Church and Gay Marriage
Have you heard any discussion in your wards about the Church's involvement in Proposition 8? What have the discussions been? Have you changed how you think about the Church at all because of their stance?
Thank you for this program. We had a discussion yesterday at work about this topic. It would be wonderful to live in a community in which everyone was respected and valued. I dream of living in a neighborhood where everyone is welcome.
As a gay couple of over 15 years, we live in West Jordan and our home has been vandalized in the past when the LDS Church enters the political scene to deny gays and lesbians the same rights their members enjoy and may take for granted.
I wish gays and lesbians could feel safe interacting with LDS members and that Utah could celebrate the Days of '47 and Gay Pride without reservations. However it is hard to imagine Gays & Lesbians giving up on their fight for equality or accepting a second class citizenship. Additionally, it is hard to imagine the LDS Church allowing other churches and citizens to treat Gays & Lesbians equally, with the very same rights as others, without attempting to deny them their equal access to all civil rights outside of the LDS Church. But is sure would be wonderful to live in such a society.
Listening to your discussion, I was really, really disappointed that there wasn't any Mormons on (at least while I was listening) that were AGAINST Prop 8, and more particularly, the church's involvement in it. Instead, I heard the opinions of men who seemed to have been born and raised only within Utah County and adhere to conservative ideology. Yet, the LDS Church has more members outside the U.S. than within, many in countries where gay marriage is permissible. Because of this, your program lacked comprehensive points of views. I didn't even hear counterpoints to what your guests were saying.
Many LDS Church members, such as myself, disagree with the Church's involvement in Prop 8. The opposition to Prop 8 is motivated by conservative tendencies within the leadership and those in the western U.S. I disagree. The Church's only prerogative should be acceptance and love. With it's vocal support of Prop 8, the LDS Church has further alienated itself from the Gay community and Mormon/non-Mormon progressives alike. Though the guests on your show today view themselves as being on an important mission to protect marriage, they are only creating a volatile situation for the LDS Church. They are also only propounded an opinion held by conservative Mormons in the U.S., an extremely small demographic in the Church.
Once again, the transparent efforts of KUER to get Utahns and Mormons to support gay rights results in a show where the liberals get the last word, and are free to say whatever they please without fear of challenge from the host or from those who represent the other side.
Is it any wonder that Fabrizio sometimes has trouble getting representatives of the LDS Church or conservative views to come on the show? Or that the audience is made up mostly of people who already agree with KUER's position? The bias of the show is so pronounced that it's mostly reduced to preaching to the choir.
On this subject, I believe that there needs to be a healing in the church and that that healing should come from our leaders.
In the meantime, as the edcation counselor in our Ward's Relief Society, I as ask that the teachers not bring up the topic of Proposition 8 in their lessons or ask questions that would lead to opinions on proposition 8. This, because I know the discomfort I feel because I have two brothers who are gay.
Also, in the meantime, outside of church meetings I tell people that when we talk about strengthening families, people need to remember that gays and lesbians are part of our families. They are our children, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles. In my family, I have a son who asks me why I would associate with a group that is so hateful toward gays. I have one brother who does not want to baptize his daughter because of hurt feelings from church discussions. I have a friend in Colorado who has stopped going to Church because her son recently came out.
Further, in church discussions, people have to know that no matter how well intentioned their judgment about gays when they say that you should love the sinner and not the sin, it is very hurtful so some very good people in the church and their families.
I wrote a letter to President Hinckley 10 years ago asking for more kindness toward our gay family and church members, telling him that in a Sunday School discussion I said, "Many of us have family members who do not conform to the teachings of this church, but they are still part of our families and we love them." President Hinckley's assistant wrote back that I should continue to do what I am doing.
So I do.
Thank you
I am not a Mormon. I think that eventually the LDS church will have to reverse their stance on gays (and eventually women) much like they did on Polygamy and Blacks, because of negative fallout. More and more the LDS church is becoming a man-made church, not the church of the Jesus Christ I know.
Daily the LDS Church is being viewed as more and more out of touch with the mainstream and intolerant of those who are different than themselves. The more they entrench into this anti-gay stance, the more they will alienate members, non-members and potential members. No doubt their message will appeal to some, but fairness, equality, compassion will appeal to more.
Likewise, some GOP leaders are starting to realize this more and more. It is surprising to hear so many mention the need to move away from some of the culture war battles and specifically they mention "Gay Marriage" as something that is evolving and if they don't evolve with it, they will be marginalized in US politics as an narrow political party that holds onto extreme ideology more than being relative to the majority of younger/moderate Americans.
It was a great program. Thanks to everyone who was involved in it.
I think that a lot of the conversation that's taking place concerning the LDS Prop 8 stance ignores a fundamental aspect of what belonging to the LDS church is about. If you really do believe that the Church is more than just a weekly social club, namely, that it is a divinely created organization designed to communicate the will of a higher authority and to help its members to obey (a huge claim regardless of which side of the fence you are on) then you know that gay marriage will never be accepted by the church.
People like to say that acceptance and love should be the Church's only prerogative. The problem is that change, sacrifice and continual self-improvement is asked from every member from baptism and is part of what being mormon is all about. You don't have to be a member of the church for long before you meet that seemingly perfect lifetime member who still agonizes over their imperfections. The church DOES accept and love everyone, but also actively teaches the difficult truth that you are not yet where you need to be. The church stance on homosexuality is part of that. There is nothing fundamentally wrong about having same gender attraction. The church teaches that there IS something fundamentally wrong about acting based on that attraction. Just as people who are born with short fuses need to learn to bridle their aggression, the Church teaches that same gender attraction needs to be controlled, even if it is natural.
The Church has never taught that those who identify as GLBT are evil people. However, the Church took the stance that it did because it views homosexual behavior as incompatible with God's will for his children. The real issue is not whether the LDS church is intolerant of homosexuals, because it isn't. The real issue is whether there is a God and whether He forbids homosexual behavior. If there is and He does, then people have to swallow their pride and make some painful choices. If there isn't or he doesn't then I guess the Church's stance is mistaken. I believe in the first one though.
I voted Obama and have never lived in Utah before. ....I'm just sayin.
Thank you for your open mindedness. Unfortunately, you are wrong in your comment saying "The Church has never taught that those who identify as GLBT are evil people". If you read back into some church publications you will find preaching that homosexuals are sinners.
Do you have a copy of the old For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet BEFORE they changed it? It used to say that “Homosexual thoughts” were sinful. Now, they’ve changed it to “Homosexual actions” as being sinful.
Have you ever read, "The Miracle of Forgiveness?" or perhaps "Peculiar People"? Books like that and countless meetings with my church leaders finally opened my eyes and killed my faith in the LDS church that I used to devote my entire life to.
Eventually the church will do the same time it's done with Polygamy and Equal Blessings for all Priesthood holders. Once the world has finally turned around and stopped persecuting those who are different, the church will have this marvelous revelation saying that they now know this awesome truth that “some people are made gay from birth and they deserve the full blessings of the church just like everyone else”. Mormons will see it as another sign that the church is true.
I'll be crying with relief knowing that gay Mormon suicides will FINALLY be on the decline.
"If you read back into some church publications you will find preaching that homosexuals are sinners."
Can you be more specific? That can be read to refer either to orientation or lifestyle, and not necessarily both.
"Homosexual thoughts" are hardly unique to homosexuals, of course. (Some Church leaders have thought, expanding on a famous passage in The Sermon on the Mount, that any thoughts of inappropriate sexual activity would be sinful, whether homosexual or heterosexual. But then not all "homosexual thoughts" are sexual.)
You may be right about what will eventually happen, but the theological issues involved are very different than those connected with blacks and the priesthood, and much harder to get around.
Your comment really fails at proving your point. So what if a pamphlet was changed. Being "EVIL," is different than a sinner. We are all sinners.
AV hit right on the head when he/she said:
"The real issue is not whether the LDS church is intolerant of homosexuals, because it isn't. The real issue is whether there is a God and whether He forbids homosexual behavior. If there is and He does, then people have to swallow their pride and make some painful choices."
People keep saying the Church will change its stance on Homosexuality. I hate to break it to you....but it isn't. This is a point that they will forever remain firm on.
Likewise I think you have missed the fundamental aspect of this entire discussion. Many of us are not Christians. Many don't believe in your God, your Bible, your holy book of choice, your religion or your prophets. I am happy you have something that works for you. But it has no appeal to billions of human beings on this planet, who want nothing to do with the LDS Church or its teachings.
Your entire arguement is based upon your God. Your reasoning is based entirely on your faith. Please respectfully understand, we don't believe in your God and want nothing to do with it. Many of its teachings are offensive to us, but feel free to live whatever your bible, qur'an, vedas, tripitaka, chuang-tzu, dianetics, book of mormon or whatever holy book teaches you for yourself.
Some do believe in the same books as you and interpret them differently, that is their "Free Agency" and choice. We simply wish that the LDS Church and its members could peacefully co-exist with others and honorably live their religion without legislating it onto others who are not LDS.
My faith teaches that everyone is wonderful, everyone deserves love, everyone should be treated equally and fairly. That everyone should have the same civil rights and access to the same government benefits.
Whatever your faith, please feel free to practice and live it within your own home/church/temple/synagogue, but please let us do the same with out interference. If your faith teaches some are better than others, some are more blessed, some are righteous, some are "God's Chosen", fine. But know others don't accept these teachings at all, and may even find them offensive. But as long as you live those teachings and don't force others to conform to your religious dogma, we are happy to allow you the right to live your life free from interference and simply ask for the same.
You seem to be arguing that people shouldn't vote according to their religious beliefs. Do you think they also shouldn't vote according to their own moral beliefs or controversial political views? If someone has religious reasons to support gay rights, should they not vote on that basis?
Maybe you only mean they shouldn't vote according to religious beliefs when they might harm others, but that's a standard that won't work, as people disagree about what's harmful on the whole. LDS mainly believe that same-sex marriage will be harmful.
I think people are free in this country to vote their conscience even when it affects others, whether that's based on religious belief or any other controversial basis. I don't understand how your response allows for that.
Edit: It's funny how people can vote on these posts. It's like being on Oprah where the audience can clap or hiss. Not at all surprising to see how the voting goes, given the slant of the programming. Another useful way to discourage unwanted ideas.
There is critical distinction between voting on a representative, bond issuance, park funding and the civil rights of a fellow human being. No one has proposed that individuals should not their will which may or may not be influenced by their faith.
However, when the majority identifies a minority and then learns that they cannot constitutionally deny the minority their civil rights unless they change the rules (constitution), that has every appearance of being both immoral, unethical and unconstitutional. Shockingly, the majority then agrees to change the rules so that they can discriminate and feel justified in doing so. If your replaced any minority group, insead of "Gay and Lesbian" within these discussions of changing constitutions, you would see how blantantly ridiculous it is.
Additionally, the vast majority of justifications given for denying Gays & Lesbians their equal rights is a prejudice rooted and supported by religious dogma. It is one thing to live a religion, it is entirely another thing to force others to live it as well. Again, please feel free to live your religion, but don't legislate it.
Like many many many human rights, an individuals rights stop when they being to impede upon another person's rights. Yes, vote your religious beliefs, but don't force your beliefs onto others who don't share your faith. Religious practice belongs in church, not in government and certainly not into the homes and lives of families who want nothing to do with someone else's religion.
You're misidentifying the place where the problem lies. There's nothing wrong with people voting according to their faith. That's perfectly constitutional, and is indeed protected by the Constitution. It's not any more immoral or wrong than voting according to one's moral or political views.
"Again, please feel free to live your religion, but don't legislate it."
That's like saying we shouldn't legislate morality or politics. LDS believe it's a moral issue and an issue of real harm to the state and its citizens, and thus also political. It makes no sense to try to exclude such considerations from voting. We force people not to marry underage because we think it's harmful to them and others, which is ultimately a value-laden moral assessment of what matters in life. Morals and values underlie our whole system of law. We must and do legislate them.
"Like many many many human rights, an individuals rights stop when they being to impede upon another person's rights."
To the extent that's true and applies here, it's an issue of whether it's right to oppose same-sex marriage, not about whether it's right to vote based on one's faith. LDS believe that same-sex marriage will harm people more than it will help, that it will impinge on the rights of all. That's what you need to address, the issue of whether those facts are true, not whether they vote based on beliefs. We all do that.
"Religious practice belongs in church, not in government and certainly not into the homes and lives of families who want nothing to do with someone else's religion."
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how our system works. I may want nothing to do with your political party or their politics, but that doesn't mean you have no right to vote according to your own party's views, even if it will restrict my freedoms (for example by taxing me, or sending me to war).
I think it's best to stick to the substance of the issue, and not go down the rabbit hole of not voting one's conscience when it affects others--not a correct view of our constitutional system.
The problem is that the Church is on the wrong side of this issue. The proper response to that isn't to act like it's wrong for LDS to vote their conscience. The proper response is to show why they're wrong on the substance. It isn't because they vote based on faith. It's because same-sex marriage won't hurt anyone and will do much good, and because constitutional principles require that we allow it.
So I was lucky to be on the show today as a caller. But I pretty much sounded like a crazy person for many reasons and did not feel like I came across the way I wanted to due to diarrhea of the mouth... So true is that in real life.... So I thought the best way to fix it was to blog about it on my public blog.... You guys are so lucky.
On the specific issue, the easiest answer is to convert all civil marriages to civil unions, grant social equality on civil unions, and leave marriage as a religion covenant governed by the rules of the (various) church(es).
In other words, separate church and state and keep their institutions equally separate--render to Caesar what is Caesar's, etc.
It doesn't address the issues of tolerance or acceptance (two very different ideas, I believe) in the LDS community, but at least it separates the acrimony into its constituent elements rather than conflating an issue of civil governance with an issue of self-determined religious observance.
I had the displeasure of hearing this anti-Prop 8 ad posing as a radio program. My issue with it was the gross and constant display of lies and inaccuracies as fact. For example, the host softball-pitched the question "Does the church's position vary from ward to ward, and stake to stake?", which the "expert" repeated the pre-planned lines "Oh, of course. Some bishops allow actively gay and lesbian couples to hold callings and even have temple recommends." (I'm paraphrasing.) That is a severe twisting of the truth.
There is no worthy LDS church leader who would issue a calling, and certainly not a temple recommend, to an unrepentant person who openly participates in homosexual behavior. That person should still be treated with love, invited to worship and participate in activities, and NEVER be looked down upon or mocked in the least degree. However, if someone were struggling with homosexual thoughts and temptations, but they were resisting those temptations and seeking proper council with church leaders and councelors, and living a heterosexual life (and keeping themselves worthy in all other respects as well), then a church leader might consider a calling or temple recommend.
That is certainly not to say any worthy church leader should ever prohibit someone who chooses a homosexual lifestyle from joining in worship and feeling God's love for them and their family. (People are still flawed, so I'm sure there is the occasional case where someone's feelings are unduly stepped upon; those cases are few and far between, and do not reflect the church as a whole.)
I'm sure the church position will not change just to suit a societal whim, any more than Abraham would accept Sodom and Gomorrah as being okay. The concept of a heterosexual family isn't just some silly, antiquated idea. It's designed and ordained by God to promote stability and moral direction for everyone from individuals to nations. Most of the problems we see today are caused because of broken families that don't have a loving father and mother at their foundation. Allowing those who choose a homosexual lifestyle to wed is just another means to tear down the fundamentals of the family. According to a Harvard study, children growing up in a household with 2 homosexual parents are 73% more likely to choose a homosexual lifestyle, be that gay or bi.
I've seen firsthand how confusing and destructive this can be on young, impressionable children. I've also seen gay/lesbian couples who've realized the real reason for their homosexual behavior, broken off their gay/lesbian relationships, both found heterosexual relationships, and had shared custody of the children. While these weren't necessarily religious homes (some were, some weren't), the children were much more well-behaved in school, their grades often improved, and they pursued normal aspirations, without having to question their fundamental sexual identity.
(Allow me to explain what I mean when I say the "real reason for their homosexual behavior": A Duke University study found that 84% of the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) people questioned had some form of sexual trauma in their past, most during childhood, with another 7% refusing to answer the question. Some people have temptations towards homosexual behavior without outside influence, but, in my experience, the overwhelming majority choose this behavior due to some form of sexual assault. Many are able to embrace the truth that the assault was not their fault, to know that they deserve to be properly loved, to release their guilt and pain, and go on to lead fulfilling, heterosexual lives without having to prove anything to anyone else.)
The greatest part about our country is that we're free to choose how we want to live, so long as that doesn't threaten the freedom of others. That is the heart of Prop 8: gay marriage threatens to destroy the fundamental social unit that keeps our country stable. Despite the love LDS people seek to have towards everyone, that is the reason the LDS Church, and the Catholic Church, have had stepped up such uncharacteristic support for such a measure.
07/15/2009 10:15:05 AM
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