Free Tibet….
Tibet and China have been at war since the 800’s. Tibet colluded with the Mongols in a priest-patron relationship and where in that relationship of mutual respect and dual responsibility when the Tibet/Mongol alliance invaded and subjugated large parts of China and Asia.
China was thus subjected to illegal rule by the Tibet/Mongol CHO-YON agreement. The priest party of the CHO-YON provided moral legitimacy to the mongols to rule over China amongst others.
After the fall of the mongols, the Dalai Lama established another CHO-YON relationship with the Manchu Dynasty which again conquested China and subjected it to illegal rule. When the Manchu Dynasty collapsed, Tibet suddenly declared itself independant of a ruling regime which it had instigated to conquer China. By conquering China with it’s CHO-YON agreement and joint responsibility arrangement, Tibet made itself a part of China - hence the formal decision to declare independance when it’s ally and hence it’s influence , collapsed.
Britian it appears invaded Tibet twice before the Chinese, and as the Chinese lost the opium wars they where forced by the dominant british army to sign a document waiving chinese sovereignity over Tibet — why oh why , would the British government recognize Chinese Sovereignity over tibet?
You will find that the US and british government have been trying to split the great land of China for decades. George Bush and the CIA invested thousands of Dollars with the University of hawai to examine whether ethnic tensions in china would result in a split of the country. Dissapointed with the results the US resorted to military training and support for rebels in these areas, mongolia, tibet, Xianjing, and the Coastal areas of China leading to a the 1959 Tibet rebellion.
The US announced in 1949 that is was ready to accept Tibet as an independant state. neither the US or Britian viewed it as such prior to this, and did everything in their power to get Tibet to Split from China.
The full history is tedious to be sure….but once again, after meetings between the Dalai Lama and the USA, tension breaks out in Tibet.
These are the snippets I have, more insight would be welcomed. In 1951 The Chinese army merely reclaimed it’s territories and did not invade anything. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet and the tensions surrounding these are a product of British and US imperialism, and the meddling thereof in nations affairs for commercial and military gain.
During the repression of China, the issue lay dormant — As china re-emerges as a regional power the USA, and Britian again see fit to stoke the fires of this division…preferring a much smaller and less influential China.

I have to say that as a Westerner I have been personally offended by the coverage of the riots in Tibet. The idea that the lives of Chinese hurt or killed in the riots do not matter is the same disregard for human life and dignity that China is accused of. The only truly unbiased report that I heard from the region was by James Miles of The Economist. He was in Lhasa during the riots and reported on the ethnic nature of the violence. Thank you James. Every other news source including, unfortunately, PRI and NPR seemed to use the riots to once more hammer China on their human rights record in Tibet. What happened to actually reporting the news? If you want to do a story on the abuse of human rights in China or the treatment of Tibetans or even how it contributed or led to the riots in Tibet, then do so, just don't gloss over the details of the violence against Chinese for the purposed of making a snappier headline.

When it comes to protests of the Olympic torch, I understand and respect the right of protesters to express their views, however, the violent element to the protests (a tiny one as it may be) made them look very bad in my eyes. Trying to take the Olympic flame out of the arms of a wheelchair-bound Chinese athlete? Come on!

Now about boycotting the opening ceremony of the Olympic games. I'll only say this, that I was a strong Clinton supporter until she suggested that Bush boycott the opening ceremony. I thought she understood the need for diplomacy and reconciliation, but comments such as these showed me that all those who accuse her of being disingenous and pandering to the masses are right. Mrs. Clinton, you lost me.

So you have been personally offended by the coverage of the riots in Tibet but you have NOT been personally offended by China's harsh treatments of tibetans over the years?!!!
Very logical...the so called "violent element to the protest (a tiny one as it may be)" made them look bad but the "violent element"(not so tiny) nature of the chinese regime does not make them look bad to you at all?!!! Wooow

Again a very biased person speaking on the chinese behalf.

I think this type of reply shows that the two sides of the debate feel very strongly about the issue. As somebody who considers myself to not belong to either side, I feel that both would do well to not alienate middle of the road westerners like myself by accusing them of "NOT being personally offended by China's harsh treatments of Tibetans over the years". Do I care about the integrity of western press more than I care about China's and Tibet's problems? Yes. I am a westerner and not Chinese or Tibetan, so I think I need not apologize for not wanting to carry the full history of worldwide atrocities on my shoulders. I also did not comment on China's human rights record or their atrocities in Tibet, and find it interesting that by speaking on one issue my opinion on another is assumed. Clearly more dialog is what is needed on the subject. If westerners cannot even understand each other when it comes to this issue, how can they ever expect to influence Chinese policy in Tibet.

Think about your statement. You care more about integrity of western press more than you care about the china's and tibet problems? Means you care more about the press coverage of the issue than the issue itself?!!! just to clear things up there is no integrity of at least US press coverage(on just about anything) since it's all being controlled by corporations AND there is absolutely NO integrity of the chinese press coverage because it's controlled by the one party system but we are talking about the 6 million people of tibet here.

From your first comments I don't really think you are a middle of the road person. That's a myth to start with, everybody who knows anything about a subject leans one way or another. In this case you are siding with the anti free tibet supporters here. Even if you really think you are middle of the road it does not matter because you need to pick a side on this issue and again the issue is not the press coverage here. Forget the press and think about real issue. Do some research and then get in back into this if you want. Also stop dividing the world into this westerners vs. easterners. I have many friends from everywhere and I understand them not because of where they are from but because of how they think.

The Chinese people and the Chinese government

Written by Tang Buxi - May 5th, 2008
http://blog.speak4china.com/?p=23

Over the past 4 weeks, we’ve seen the Chinese community world-wide rise up in protest. In the face of widespread criticism from the West, various segments of the community (including recently arrived students, fourth-generation Chinese immigrants, and even some “old generals” from the 1989 Tiananmen protests) have come together to fiercely and proudly reassert our Chinese identity. It was no small step; for the vast majority of us, this represented the first time we’ve ever waved the Chinese national flag, or participated in a political ‘movement’ of any kind.

I think it’s safe to assume that none of the critics of China wanted (or expected) this reaction from the Chinese public at large. So, what happened? Where did they miscalculate?


A common refrain heard recently in the Western media-space goes like this:

Don’t they understand that we’re not criticizing the Chinese people? Our goal is to criticize Chinese government policy. Why haven’t they learned to distinguish between the Chinese people and the Chinese government?

My response to this is simple: the vast majority of Chinese have no difficulty distingushing between ourselves and our government. Many of the online Chinese forums are filled with debates about our governments’ policies, and the critics often out-number those who support specific government policies. Many of us are not shy about discussing our governments’ failing with anyone ready to listen.

However, even though many of us are critical of our government, all of us love our country with a passion. If you looked closely, you would’ve seen that those of us marching in Toronto, Washington DC, and Canberra were waving our five-star national flag. If you listened carefully, you would’ve heard us singing our national anthem, “Great China” (大中国), “Ode to the Motherland” (歌唱祖国), and “My Chinese Heart” (我的中国心). As you walked the streets of San Francisco or Seoul, the loudest chants you heard would have been “Go China!” (中国，加油!).

All of these are symbols of the Chinese nation, rather than symbols of the Communist Party. None of us recited Communist Party slogans (except perhaps as a sort of tongue-in-cheek/campy humor), none of us carried the Hammer and Sickle flag, none of us sang “If there is no Communist Party, there is no New China” (没有共产党就没有新中国). In other times, there would have been loud and angry political debates between the Chinese who marched on the streets; many of us hold opposing opinions on government policies in the People’s Republic of China. But for this one moment, for this one instant, we were united by love of our country. Our country is China. Our country isn’t defined by the current government, nor is it even necessarily defined by the People’s Republic of China. (For example… many of us enthusastically cheer the sight, at the 3:00 mark in this video, of these torch supporters from Taiwan carrying the Republic of China flag.)

Some Western critics have a difficult time accepting this explanation. When presented with evidence that the Chinese in China were increasingly angered by these activist campaigns (mostly online postings), they pointed to Chinese government controls on free speech, on political dissent, on internet access… the Chinese in China were brain-washed, and could hardly hope to know better. And when hundreds of thousands of overseas Chinese (with full access to the wonders of the free media) came out in opposition to their campaign, this theory was extended further: the indoctrination we all received in our youths must be far more severe than originally predicted, and we were simply ill-equipped to handle “fair” Western criticism. To all of these critics, I have only one thing to say: 6/4/89. It’s a date now 19 years in the past, but many of us (both inside and outside of China) remember its lesson well. I, for one, remember these same indoctrinated, brain-washed overseas Chinese stepping out in overwhelming opposition to our government’s actions in violently suppressing the riots in Tiananmen!

So, this still leaves us with the original question. Why have the protesters and activists calling for pressure failed so miserably on this account? Rather than dividing the government and her people, how have they managed to push massive numbers of Chinese firmly back into the Communist Party’s corner?

In short, it is the activists themselves who’re suffering from severe myopia; it is these activists and their supporters in the West apparently lack the ability to distinguish between the Chinese people and their government. I see two key issues as being the primary driving factor behind Chinese outrage: territorial integrity, and international respect in the form of the Olympics. Due to a combination of ignorance and wishful thinking, they’ve identified these two issues as being “government” objectives, without recognizing their significance to the masses at large.

These are both issues I’ll explore in detail in upcoming articles.

I am glad chinese love their country and feel warm and cozy toward their government right now. I am not sure what you mean by saying "Why have the protesters and activists calling for pressure failed so miserably on this account?" I think we have clearly turned the focus on china terrible human rights record and set a path for better treatment of tibetan people. The western money is clearly backing china and certain chinese have taken the bait as well. All this pro Chinese comments just means there are a lot of chinese around who in a way want to save face.

If you want to side with anti freedom and oppression forces then that is the choice you have made. If you want to turn a blind eye to china's horrible environmental and labor practices, china's support of terrible governments such as Burma and north korea and then continue singing the motherland songs again that would be your choice. But at the end with this attitude and the path this planet is on right now no one is winning.

"If you want to side with anti freedom and oppression forces then that is the choice you have made.."

here is what you are completely wrong: the Chinese taking streets in past month was to show their supports to Olympics which weill be hosted by their country and protesting against western media's distortion of facts in Lahsa riots. why are you so angerily against something which was not there in the first place?

The World forums are depressing. I thought there would be a lot more intelligent discussion going on here, but on a number of issues there just seems to be screaming back and forth. Just got done reading comments on the Olympic torch protests, Mexico border fence, and Iraqi refugees. Thanks to all those who didn't capitalize their responses and use offensive language. How sad.

"If a strong majority of Hawaiian people would want a succession from the US, we should respect their wish and China should do the same if a strong majority of Tibetans want to be independent"

Wow! How convenient? The “pure blood” Hawaiians in Hawaii is now only less than 10% in their own land, and after more than 100 years of annexation of Hawaii and all the things done to the young Hawaiians, are you calling for Hawaiians to vote for their independence?

If the US government allow the Southerners to vote in 1861 to secede, then there will be no Civil War. Now after 150 years of “occupation” by the Yankees, the Southern States are part of the big family and probably very happy about it. Congratulations! Good job!

Sure, China can allow Tibetans to vote, but should just follow the brilliant examples of the good old USA mentioned above, after another 100 years, Tibetans can vote freely at that time!

Oh, by the way, China should encourage Tibetans to open Casinos in the plateau, look at how successful the Native American Casinos on their “Reservations”!

Your reply is typical of misrepresentations and falsifyings that is going on by Chinese regime and certain Chinese people. For your information the "Hawaiian people" means indigenous people of Hawaii, not the people who moved in there ten years ago.

But the the bigger answer is: this discussion is not about Hawaiian people to start with!! One of your comrades brought that up. I don't see Hawaiians getting tortured and killed. This is about Tibet and China. AND China has been trying to force Tibetans to be part of China for HUNDREDS of years and it still has not worked. So a very bad job by China then.

People like you who are making fun of this situation & Tibetan people by talking about building Casinos and so forth are showing how insensitive some Chinese are towards miseries faced by Tibetans. All they want is freedom and they should have the right to vote.

Tibetans in China do have the right to vote as any Chinese citizens do according to the PRC consitution and they have practiced this right since 1950 as all other Chinese have done,a Chinese style democracy.

Having different notions about Free Tibet issue does not necessarily mean being "insensitive" to the Tibetan people's suffering. many in the US have different takes on the Iraq war. i don't think that even the most conservatives would agree that they are insensitive to the victimized people there. A issue like Free Tibet is not a simple black and white one as many of the troubled issues in the world today and merely a moral stance is a place to start with but not a solution.

food for thought.
in some respects and to certain extent Tibet issue does share some simiarities with the American Indian problem. China was in fact doing something along the lines of what the us had done to the Indians, perhaps in a more subtle way?

Setting aside all the arguments about unlawful arrests, torture, inhumane treatment (wait... am I talking about China, or Guantanamo Bay...), I think the one thing that frustrates me the most is the way the Chinese government suppresses information. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to say that the state-run news agency publishes nothing but lies and fabrications; i really don't think it's like that... There is, however, a very apparent censorship effort that is enforced in most all sources of information from news papers to the internet. I suppose that might be one reason why westerners find it so hard to debate some of these issues with Chinese citizens (and vica versa); both sides feel like the other is operating under anything from misguided misconceptions to outright lies and falsehoods.

Without question, the US government has some very high crimes that it has had to answer for and probably will continue to answer for (currently the largest elephant in the room obviously being our war in Iraq). Everything from our history with native Americans to the civil rights movement to aspects of our current foreign policy are sources of national embarrassment and shame that our country has to face up to. The big difference then between the wrongs committed by either country is that in the US, there is always an effort made to try and face those wrongs and accept them as facts of our history. When the police beat up rodney king, they didn't have the option of suppressing the video tape (though I'm sure they'd have liked to). The US public was put face to face with the reality of the incident and the issue had to be confronted. Certainly not all crimes or misdeeds of those who wield power in the US are exposed, I'm sure; but the point that I'm making is that if the Chinese police or army or some other state run security force beat a Chinese citizen nearly to death, it'd likely never be reported. If it was, it'd more likely be framed in a light that justified the action taken (this is one reason why westerners are skeptical about some of the reports that came out of the Tibet riots).

It's unlikely that everyone in china would suddenly change their minds about something like Tibet if there was suddenly no more state-run censorship, but it would certainly change the argument. If dissent wasn't a crime, we'd all likely be having a much different discussion right now (or rant in some cases). Just as it's been said by others in this thread: both governments are supported by the vast majority of their citizens. I would argue, however, that the system that can express self-criticism, no matter how painful it might be, will ultimately be the healthier of the two.

Very well said. I completely agree with your argument. I belong to the free Tibet camp but I do think at this point because of the cyclone and the earthquake we need to do all we can to help the Chinese people and Burma cyclone victims. That's what I am going to do because politics don't matter at times like this.